What Real Recovery From Porn Addiction Looks Like With Sathiya Sam, Founder of DeepClean™

Lora Cheadle [00:00:01]:
You're listening to Flaunt: Find Your Sparkle and Create a Life You Love After Infidelity or Betrayal, a podcast for women who've been betrayed by their intimate partner and want to turn their devastation into an invitation to reclaim themselves and their worth. Tune in weekly so you can start making sense of it all and learn how to be okay on the inside, no matter what goes on on the outside. Download your free betrayal recovery toolkit at betrayalrecoveryguide.com.

Sathiya Sam [00:00:36]:
If your life has been turned upside down by infidelity, you may be asking one of two very different questions. The first is, what do I do now? You may still be in the wreckage of discovering what happened, trying to figure out what's true, what can actually be fixed, and whether reconciliation is even possible, Or if it's even what you want. You're busy analyzing every conversation, looking for signs that he's changing, wondering whether you're seeing remorse or manipulation, progress or more empty promises. One day you wake up and you think, that's it, I should stay. The next, you're certain that you need to leave. And underneath all of it is this intense fear that you'll make the wrong choice. And you'll end up regretting it for the rest of your life. Or maybe you've already come through the worst of it.

Sathiya Sam [00:01:35]:
You've done some therapy, read the books, had the conversations, made some decisions, and from the outside, your life might even be starting to look okay again. But on the inside, you still don't feel like yourself. You're beginning to realize that The betrayal exposed more than just what he did. It exposed all of the things that happened to you along the way. How often you bent, accommodated, kept the peace, or consistently put yourself last in your own life just to keep everything intact. And now you're asking a very different question. You're asking, what do I want the rest of my life to look like? And who am I going to be in it? These are 2 very different places in the betrayal journey, and they require different kinds of support. If you're still in the wreckage, I can help you get the answers you need so you can figure out what's true, what can actually be fixed.

Lora Cheadle [00:02:46]:
And whether reconciliation is possible in your situation or not, so you can stop spiraling and start knowing exactly what to do next. If you've come through the worst of infidelity, but still feel as though some part of you never came back, I can help you stop building a life that works for everybody else and start creating one that works for you. So you no longer have to bend, accommodate, or come in last in your own life just to keep everything running smoothly. Because healing from betrayal isn't just about surviving what somebody else did to you. It's about getting clear, trusting yourself and your reality again, knowing what you want and need, advocating for yourself clearly, And reclaiming the parts of you that you sacrificed along the way so you can make this next chapter truly about you. If you recognize yourself in either of these women, I invite you to book an introductory session with me. It's a private one-on-one session where we'll talk about what's happening, where you're at, Where you feel stuck and what kind of support would actually help you start moving forward. You don't have to know what path you're on before you book.

Lora Cheadle [00:04:19]:
That's what we'll figure out together. Book your introductory session at introductorysession.com. That's introductorysession.com. Because you don't have to keep trying to solve this alone.

Lora Cheadle [00:04:39]:
Have you ever wondered about addictions? And by that, I mean, have you ever wondered, could my partner have an addiction? What's the difference between having an addiction and just liking something and doing it a lot? And have you ever thought, What does it really mean to recover from an addiction? What is my role in that? And what is his role in that? And what does it really mean? We're going to answer all of those questions and so much more. Today's guest is Satya Sam, and he is an addiction recovery specialist. He has got— he's created the Deep Clean Method. He's got both lived experience and experience helping other men recover from addiction. I was on his podcast a while ago and we had a really deep, profound conversation. And I was really looking forward to bringing him and his perspective to the show and to you today. So welcome. I'm really looking forward to our conversation.

Sathiya Sam [00:05:48]:
Thank you for having me, Lora. I will have to say that you did such a great job on my podcast. The guys were raving about it. And so I'm hoping I can return maybe even a fraction of the value to your audience. It was amazing.

Lora Cheadle [00:05:59]:
I'm sure you can. I'm sure you can. Will you start by talking a little bit about you and your journey and how you help men? Because I think that's important.

Sathiya Sam [00:06:13]:
Yeah, and I appreciate the introduction and the kind words, the way you set it up. Helping guys quit pornography addiction was not something that I set out to do as a child. That was not my childhood career dreams. I had much bigger aspirations to be a pizza delivery boy. That's what my parents remind me of. But my story really does start in childhood. I was exposed to pornography in the computer lab of my Christian school when I was 11 years old. That's pretty young.

Sathiya Sam [00:06:39]:
Yeah, it is. Buddy who played high-level soccer, I mean, as high-level soccer as you can at 11, just said, hey, go check out this website. This is computer labs, so that dates this a little bit. I think it was 2001. And very innocent sounding URL. And I typed it in and sure enough, you know, I had been exposed to something that really I had never seen before in my entire life, didn't even have a grid for it. And it wasn't like I was hopelessly addicted overnight. It just planted a seed.

Sathiya Sam [00:07:06]:
And then as time went on, by the time I was in high school, pornography was a steady part of my life. And then by the time I was in university, pornography was a necessary part of my life. And I was a high achieving academic. Skipped a grade, 5 figures in research grants while I was doing my undergrad and had my honors degree by the time I was 20. And the only way I really knew how to cope with all the academic pressure and everything else was pornography. And so, I planned my days around it. I didn't really go a day without and I would pass on other commitments, but I would always make sure that that was somehow involved. And at some point along the way, and we can get into it, but I just made a personal decision.

Sathiya Sam [00:07:45]:
It was a faith decision. that made me decide, okay, I do want to quit pornography and eliminate this from my life. And like any other bad habit I had in my life, I figured I'll muster up some willpower and should be good to go, maybe read a couple books along the way. And that was about 3 years, Lora, of me just kind of spinning my tires, not really knowing why I couldn't get over this thing because I had miscategorized it as just a bad habit. And it wasn't until I had reached kind of a breaking point that I finally started to uncover what actually pornography addiction is, and more importantly, how you actually heal from a pornography addiction. And so it was about another 18 months of uncovering that. February 2016, I had my last relapse. And during the 5 years or so that I was trying to quit, I had always purposed in my heart that if I could figure out how to do this for myself, I would help others how to figure out and do it for themselves as well.

Sathiya Sam [00:08:38]:
So I started Deep Clean in 2018, and we've helped thousands of guys quit pornography since.

Lora Cheadle [00:08:43]:
Thank you so much for A, the work that you do, but B, for being so honest and for bringing to light what this is and what this isn't. Because I, like you, I never dreamed of becoming a betrayal recovery specialist. That was not what I thought. But what I love about how the way you described it is there's so many misconceptions. We think pornography addiction is something that happens to low achievers, to people who have bad families and bad relationships and no self-worth. And, you know, we think that it's something that it's not. And then we think that if we just shame people into quitting, if we just tell them how bad it impacts us, if we just tell them, oh my gosh, that's disgusting, then they're going to stop. And that's not it at all.

Sathiya Sam [00:09:38]:
Yeah.

Lora Cheadle [00:09:39]:
Not at all.

Lora Cheadle [00:09:40]:
So thank you for being brave enough and vulnerable enough to share. No, this, this is me and it happens to everybody. And it's not because you're a bad person. There's a process. There's an addiction process that we unwittingly walk into. And then It's hard to walk ourselves back out. We need help to get back out. And it's not shame, dark, dirty.

Lora Cheadle [00:10:08]:
People need compassion and support and understanding in all the right ways.

Sathiya Sam [00:10:12]:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it's interesting, you know, because when I would have been exposed in 2001, the World Wide Web was kind of the wild, wild west a little bit. You know, you just, you found stuff online and you didn't really know how you found it or someone told you about a site. Google wasn't really as established, obviously, as it is now. But today, I feel it for even young people today because I think they are getting exposed because they're getting targeted. They have targets on their back. And I love what you said earlier, we often internalize this, I'm doing something destructive or I'm doing something bad, therefore I must be bad.

Lora Cheadle [00:10:50]:
Yeah.

Sathiya Sam [00:10:51]:
And I think especially as a child, whether or not I had a faith framework because my parents were pastors and I grew up in that environment. But, I think even people that don't necessarily have that architecture generally still have a sense of right and wrong and that this is kind of crossing that line. But, if you don't know, if you don't realize that the industries are targeting you, that they're trying to lure you in, if you don't understand what's really going on, yeah, you naturally just turn it inwards. You think, I'm bad. And then, out of that shame of feeling bad about yourself, you behave more badly. And then the cycle becomes vicious and it just repeats itself.

Lora Cheadle [00:11:29]:
Right, right. Which is what that industry counts on. It counts on keeping this in the dark, making it secretive so people don't become aware of what's really happening. So let's talk about what is really happening. How do people really inadvertently become addicted? And why is that so insidious, really?

Sathiya Sam [00:11:55]:
Yeah, so I was a university researcher, so I won't geek out too hard, but I will give a little bit of science to contextualize this answer.

Lora Cheadle [00:12:01]:
Please.

Sathiya Sam [00:12:02]:
Sexual stimulation is processed in the brain and body 20% faster than any kind. So what that means is when the average age of first exposure now, by the way, is about between the ages of 8 to 10. So when you're getting exposed to pornography at a very young age, number one, sexual stimulation, Pornography specifically is what neuroscientists call a supernormal stimulus. In other words, the level of stimulation it provides is unnatural. It is beyond what would be considered normal by any stretch of the imagination. So, you have something that is unbelievably stimulating getting processed in a 10-year-old brain and body that has no concept for it to begin with. But number 2 is what they call hyperplastic. That's why kids can learn languages without accents because they just— You get it.

Sathiya Sam [00:12:50]:
They're wet cement. Yeah, they're wet cement. So what this means basically is the hardwiring starts at a very, very young age. And this is why pornography becomes really addictive as time goes on. It's simply that you are so accustomed to such a high level of stimulation that there's almost nothing else in life that provides nearly the level of reward. And that's why you come back to it again and again. And you don't think much of it. At least certainly I didn't think much of it being young.

Sathiya Sam [00:13:21]:
I always told myself, I probably shouldn't be doing this, but I'll just stop when I want.

Lora Cheadle [00:13:26]:
Right.

Sathiya Sam [00:13:26]:
And then you reach some kind of tipping point, whether it's, you know, for me, it was kind of like a come-to-Jesus moment, but maybe it's a wife that's ready to leave, or it's kids that can't look you in the eyes anymore, or, you know, whatever the situation is. Lots of guys in our program have lost jobs, unfortunately, because of their porn use. So, something hits the road and then you're like, okay, I need to clean things up. And then, you realize, I can't figure this out. And, I think a lot of people just don't realize actually you're up against a lot of hardwiring. This started a long, long, long time ago. And often, it started before your first exposure to pornography, which I know being a betrayal trauma specialist, you would know that as well. There's a lot of childhood factors that play into this and your upbringing and everything.

Sathiya Sam [00:14:06]:
But, I think just as a starting point, I think it's important people understand the biological aspect of this. Pornography is incredibly addictive to begin with, but it's, it's the addictive nature coupled with the early exposure that makes it, yeah, just almost insurmountable unless you really have the right tools.

Lora Cheadle [00:14:24]:
Right, right. And you know, on top of that too, and again, different communities are slightly different, but pornography and pornography use has been normalized, I feel. Of course, you know, across the board, if somebody says that, it's not, what, I've never heard of that. Yeah, you know, and then there's arguments, oh, well, porn use is normal. Well, all guys do it. So I think that plays into it as well. You have an early exposure, but then there's this almost cultural acceptance of it, which doesn't let you understand. Same thing with alcohol use, you know, it's, it's been culturally normalized.

Lora Cheadle [00:15:04]:
There's nothing good about it. And I'm, you know, and I'm not passing judgment on anything, but there's so many things where it's just been normalized. Doesn't everybody have a few drinks after work? Doesn't everybody occasionally use porn? And I think that's a layer of it as well.

Sathiya Sam [00:15:21]:
That's a really, you know, that's a really good point because it is, it is normalized. And what's, what's very insidious is, I think alcohol, for example, you'll go out and you'll drink with your friends. And there's a very public aspect of it. Pornography is what they call the 3 A's. It's affordable, accessible, and anonymous. And that 3rd A, the anonymity of it, in addition to what you're saying, kind of a socialization of it, makes it a rampant epidemic. But it's a quiet epidemic because everybody's talking about it. Like you said, there's a lot of bro culture that kind of enables the behavior.

Lora Cheadle [00:15:57]:
Yes.

Sathiya Sam [00:15:58]:
But then it all happens privately. behind closed doors. And so like you said, a couple minutes ago, when there's all this darkness around it, and it stays isolated and hidden, then it means that number one, you, you're likely going to do much worse things than if you were in a public environment, which certainly with porn viewership, that would be the case.

Lora Cheadle [00:16:17]:
Oh, yeah.

Sathiya Sam [00:16:18]:
But number two is, even if you did want help, because it happened, it's happening in such an isolated place, it, it's very, very hard. It often takes a lot for people to actually Take steps towards that, that freedom.

Lora Cheadle [00:16:32]:
Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about some of those steps because you said, yes, there's a defining moment, whether it's internal where you say, I can't look at myself in the mirror, or it's your partner, or like many of the women listening to this show, their partners have cheated alongside of that. Then they find out there's this pornography addiction and I never knew that happened. And then how do I handle all of this and you need to clean things up now or I'm out of here? What, sometimes I don't think people are ready to face their addiction. So how does this happen when some external force has happened and you are or are not quite ready to deal with it? Let's talk about that.

Sathiya Sam [00:17:20]:
Ooh, yeah. So from the male perspective, you mean?

Lora Cheadle [00:17:24]:
Please.

Sathiya Sam [00:17:24]:
So external circumstance, like he's been caught in his affair or the porn addiction, whatever it might be.

Lora Cheadle [00:17:29]:
Yeah, it's all the house of cards is starting to crumble. What is that like?

Sathiya Sam [00:17:35]:
Oh my goodness. I think probably most guys are just very, very afraid. When, when you struggle with a porn addiction, your greatest, your greatest underlying fear is being found out. So that's why guys will clear their browser history. They have, you know, sometimes they have external hard drives where they will store files and whatever else. There's layers to this. So, when someone says, hey, can you pass me your phone and I'll, you know, punch in my contact information? That's a scary moment for somebody who's addicted to porn because you just don't know when something might mistakenly pop up or they get into your messages and they find out you're messaging someone. And again, Is it likely to happen? Probably not, but the fear is there.

Lora Cheadle [00:18:22]:
Totally.

Sathiya Sam [00:18:23]:
And so, most guys have rehearsed the 100 kinds of different ways their lives crumble if they get caught. And so, when they do get caught or when something surfaces, that's terrifying. That thing you've had anxiety about is finally happening and that's a really scary place. So, I think most guys first are fearful. And then secondly, whatever defense mechanisms they had previously to kind of COVID up go on steroids basically.

Lora Cheadle [00:18:52]:
Yeah.

Sathiya Sam [00:18:52]:
Which is why so many women have the experience of, you know, I think he's watching. The woman just knows. I always say the number one way a wife can tell that her husband's watching pornography is if in her heart she thinks that he might be watching pornography. That's the ultimate tell. But typically the experience is that they ask about it, they ask around it, and it's just like, no, I would never do that. No, no, no, no. It's high defensiveness. So I think when the house of cards is falling, first the guy's afraid, and then second he's thinking, how do I cover my tracks or how do I clean this up as quickly as possible? And most guys still lean towards the, if I can just cover this up, I can get back to the way things used to be.

Lora Cheadle [00:19:38]:
That makes sense. That absolutely makes sense. So do they— I'm not sure how to ask this. So what typically happens then is they try to clean it up, they can fake it for a little while, and then they relapse. What is typical in your experience?

Sathiya Sam [00:19:57]:
That, yeah. So that would be the most typical experience initially, any initial conversations, even when it's very obvious, like The wife opens up the laptop and there's pornography there and it's very clearly his pornography. So generally initial conversations, again, if they don't have to, like, if they don't have someone like you to guide them along the way to navigate the conversation, right, usually it's, hey, you have to, like, the wife is like, hey, you have to promise me you'll never do that again. The guy goes, yes, I promise I'll never do that again. Like, it's very, it's very patchwork. Like, let's just— Let's just patch this up and move on.

Lora Cheadle [00:20:33]:
Right.

Sathiya Sam [00:20:34]:
Let's make it as mess-free as possible. And then most, I mean, I have a lot of women reach out to me on Instagram. I was actually just talking to a woman earlier today who she's expecting their first child together. She's just found out about everything that he's been watching and struggling with. Had some conversations about it before. It was very surface level, very preliminary. And he kind of just said, That's a thing of the past, but it wasn't. So these stories are happening all the time.

Sathiya Sam [00:21:03]:
And then usually it's cyclical. It's kind of like, okay, they got caught again, or maybe he'll come clean again. And it's like, okay, here's what I'm doing. And then they go back. So the problem is, number one, there's not really any conversation about what's really driving this. It's just kind of like, hey, you're doing the bad thing and that's hurting me. And he's like, yeah, I don't want to hurt you anymore, so I'll stop the bad thing.

Lora Cheadle [00:21:26]:
But we're good.

Sathiya Sam [00:21:27]:
Yeah. And the guy means it, right? It's not like he's insincerely saying, yeah, I want to get better, or I don't want to do this, generally speaking. But the problem usually is that he just doesn't understand why he's actually doing it. He doesn't understand the hardwiring. He doesn't understand what it means to maybe get more to the roots of the issue. And so usually the solutions end up being suppress emotion and temptation, willpower and white-knuckle your way through, and maybe get like a filter-blocking software or something that'll stop you from doing it. And those are all level 2 solutions to a level 10 problem. So they might work for a little bit, but they're not going to lead to any kind of lasting change.

Lora Cheadle [00:22:13]:
I'm just popping in because I want to hear this from your mouth. Thank you for saying again, level 2 solution to a level 10 problem. This is not about him not loving her. This is not about him not valuing the marriage or the relationship or their kids. Correct?

Sathiya Sam [00:22:30]:
Correct. Yes.

Lora Cheadle [00:22:32]:
Nothing. I mean, we're talking apples and oranges here.

Sathiya Sam [00:22:35]:
Yeah. I think that's a hard message though. I'm sure you experienced this too. Like, that's not an easy message to get through. I was actually blown away by your perspective. From early on in your own experience, Lora, when we were talking on my podcast, because I think it's pretty unique. And I think that's why you're in this space and making such a big difference. So, I do think it's hard for women to probably grasp that, but it is the truth.

Sathiya Sam [00:22:58]:
It is not personal, even though it feels incredibly personal. And I think often the woman feels like, well, maybe if I'm more XYZ, Like if I put out more or if I, you know, or if I do more around the house or if I make his life easier at home and I'll handle more with the kids. So they often will actually become superwives and supermoms in the attempt to kind of help make his life easier so he doesn't watch porn.

Lora Cheadle [00:23:27]:
Yes.

Sathiya Sam [00:23:27]:
It just doesn't have anything to do with you. And that's, I think the other piece of it, and this was coming up in the conversation I was referencing earlier is, and again, I'm sure you hear this question all the time, but she explains her story and then she basically said, what do I do to help him want to change?

Lora Cheadle [00:23:48]:
Right.

Sathiya Sam [00:23:49]:
And then I was like, well, I don't know what you can do actually. He kind of has to want to change more than you want him to change for anything to actually change. And it takes different circumstances, different criteria, there's different reasons that guys eventually reach that place. But I think the most powerless part of this experience for the woman is she can't go and make him change. And she wants to so that they can have a better marriage, so that she can be less hurt, so that obviously he can become the man that, you know, he's supposed to be and everything else. And you just, most of those elements are beyond your control as far as his behavior and his decisions with pornography go. Yeah.

Lora Cheadle [00:24:25]:
And that's what I think is a shame in a lot of ways. Both people love the other person. Both people want the relationship. They want each other to be happy, healthy, whole. And when you're fighting these demons, you can't. And then it creates— I don't necessarily love the word codependency because I just don't, but it creates now I'm working more for you than you're working for you. And then I become a failure when I can't make you succeed. And it's very painful.

Sathiya Sam [00:24:58]:
Yeah.

Lora Cheadle [00:24:58]:
And I just want to pause right here for anybody going through this and acknowledge that. Oh my gosh, this hurts. This is hard. You can get it in your head, but in your heart and in your body, you're still going to want to break down and feel hopeless about this whole situation. It's hard. And before we move on, I just want to acknowledge that and kind of give you the opportunity to breathe into it. I'm sorry that we're all here. It stinks.

Lora Cheadle [00:25:28]:
And there is life on the other side of it, but sometimes it takes a while to get there.

Sathiya Sam [00:25:37]:
Yeah, it's well said. Yeah, again, I think you're going to say that better than I can. The one thing I would love to add on to that, Lora, is I think it's important, your story is such a shining example of this. It doesn't matter how bad it is, doesn't matter how many times you've been through this cycle, things can change.

Lora Cheadle [00:25:55]:
Yeah.

Sathiya Sam [00:25:56]:
And that's the one thing, if I look at the married men that have come through our program, and we've had married men come through a program, quit pornography, and still not get the marriage back. That does happen.

Lora Cheadle [00:26:06]:
Right.

Sathiya Sam [00:26:06]:
But if I look at the stories of the guys who do get the marriage back, the one thing that they almost always have in common is they have a spouse who is willing to do their part as well. They have a wife who said, hey, this is your problem. Nothing changes there. But also, I'm going to go and I'm going to make sure that I get the support I need. So to any woman who's listening to this show, I just want to commend you. You're that spouse. You're that that wife who's going to give your husband a fighting chance and your marriage a chance, not to go back to the way things used to be, but actually to be way, way, way better than anything you've ever experienced before. So yeah, that for us has always been the number one sign.

Sathiya Sam [00:26:47]:
So just well done to anybody who's made it this far into the show.

Lora Cheadle [00:26:50]:
Yeah, absolutely. And to the best that you can say this, because I know all situations are different, what are the best things that a spouse can do? I mean, obviously saying this is your problem, you need to fix it, but what else? Because I know so many listeners are like, just tell me what to do. I need to get out of this pain. Tell me what to do and I'll do it.

Sathiya Sam [00:27:13]:
Yeah. Well, they should, they should come to you. I think that, I think that people who are feeling hurt and feeling that betrayal need somewhere to process it. And because if they don't have a place outside of their marriage to process it, they will take it out on their spouse and on their husband. And for the husbands that are in my program that are getting that from their wives, their healing gets delayed.

Lora Cheadle [00:27:36]:
Yes.

Sathiya Sam [00:27:38]:
Because again, they already feel bad. And then I'm thinking of a guy I spoke with last week. My wife lashed out at me again, but man, I deserve it. What can I say? And he's actually All of that shame that's been driving his addiction is reinforced by his wife's, you know, I would say kind of like outbursts. And again, I'm not asking any woman to be perfect here. Like outbursts are going to happen. You're going to have disagreements. You're going to get triggered.

Sathiya Sam [00:28:05]:
So I'm not saying don't be perfect about it. But if I'm giving some best practices or some things to aim towards, find other places to process.

Lora Cheadle [00:28:11]:
Yeah.

Sathiya Sam [00:28:12]:
Because I think if you can process with other people safely, you can probably show up with a little bit more poise and composure in your marriage. And that your husband is going to feel that. And not only is he going to feel that, he's going to feed off of that. And that's going to drive him to want to be better, to obviously want to invest more in his own recovery work and really pursue that. I think the other thing that a wife can do, a supportive wife can do that really helps is check in with him in a way that is not triggering. And this is where there's nuance. And I think a wife will typically know what's going to be triggering for the husband. But one of the things we really discourage in our program is don't make your wife your accountability partner.

Sathiya Sam [00:28:56]:
It's not her burden to bear. And sometimes guys hear that and they go, great, I don't have to talk to her about this. And we're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, okay, hold on, not quite that.

Lora Cheadle [00:29:03]:
Not it.

Sathiya Sam [00:29:04]:
What we mean is, and we don't really do accountability partners in our program, we do spotters is what we call them. So if anyone's ever worked out at the gym, a spotter is somebody who just holds the bar a little bit. And early on when I started helping guys quit pornography, a lot of guys said, oh, I had an accountability partner. He never reached out to me. He didn't. It was always about what he didn't do. And I just didn't like the victim mentality that sometimes came with those arrangements. So that's why we do the spotter thing.

Sathiya Sam [00:29:30]:
Like, you're lifting the weight, you're holding the bar. They're just helping you. They're giving you a little lift when you need it kind of thing.

Lora Cheadle [00:29:36]:
Yes.

Sathiya Sam [00:29:37]:
So we encourage like, hey, you have your spotter. That's the person you talk to in a little bit more depth, a bit more detail. And then you need to have some established communication rhythm with your wife that you both agree to. And our best practice at Deep Clean is any slips or relapses, there's communication about it within 24 hours. And then you have a weekly check-in where she gets to hear not just like, did you watch porn, yes or no? That's like, that's very destructive. That's not a good way to communicate about it.

Lora Cheadle [00:30:05]:
No.

Sathiya Sam [00:30:05]:
But more just how are you learning? How are you growing? Like, what's, what's going on? And in that conversation, obviously, if there are slips, like you discuss it. But a lot of our guys, when they don't know this, like when they're early on, Their communication rhythm is, I just tell my spouse when I slip. And a lot of these guys have actually come a long way. They've just kind of plateaued and they don't know how to kind of get any further. That's when they come to us. And what we tell them is, if your spouse only hears when you slip, in her mind, she has a completely distorted view. She just thinks this guy's having relapses all the time. He's not growing.

Sathiya Sam [00:30:41]:
He's not healing.

Lora Cheadle [00:30:42]:
Right.

Sathiya Sam [00:30:42]:
But if she gets to hear about traumas that you're uncovering, this dynamic with your mom that you had growing up that actually contributed to getting unmet needs and that drove some of your porn usage. Like, if she starts to hear about this or how you got really stressed out at work and you felt tempted to watch pornography, but you didn't because you called your spotter or you, you know, you went for a walk.

Lora Cheadle [00:31:01]:
Yeah.

Sathiya Sam [00:31:01]:
She's got to hear those things. She's got to get perspective on what's really going on, obviously, in addition to the stumbles along the way. And so that's what the guys should do. And I think, I think for the wives who are listening, I think just being really present and engaged in those conversations goes a really long way for him, showing that you care. And just doing it consistently. That consistency goes a long way. If some days, you know, you're, you're, you're like a little bit temperamental, and other days, you know, you're there and you're with him, that inconsistency can make it more difficult for him to share honestly. The more that you can be there and really be a good listener and a good receiver, the farther it'll go.

Lora Cheadle [00:31:38]:
And thank you for saying it's not about perfection, because I think that's sometimes a burden that makes people think, well, I'm not even going to take this journey on then. because I can't be perfect like that. I will get triggered. You're right. We need other places to process and we're going to stumble. And I love the idea of a spotter. I mean, for both sides, whether it's the man with the addiction or the woman, because I know my, as the woman, my rage sometimes over the situation, my, how could you do this? Why aren't you strong enough to do this? all of those stories and frustrations, it's easy to want to take them out on your partner. And yeah, sometimes I do work with my coaches, my— sometimes I mess it up.

Lora Cheadle [00:32:26]:
And that's okay too, you know, of course. Yeah, really okay too.

Sathiya Sam [00:32:30]:
Yeah. Again, I think, and I don't know where this all comes from, but I know that when marriages are struggling, there is often this desire to kind of get it back on track and get it, get it perfect again as quickly as possible.

Lora Cheadle [00:32:41]:
Yeah.

Sathiya Sam [00:32:42]:
And I think that's a real gift to people, what you just said. And I totally agree with it. It's true for recovery. It's true for the wife who's going through betrayal trauma. And it's true for the marriage that wants to heal. It doesn't have to be perfect. And another thing that I'll give you kind of a parallel here. Another thing that guys often fall into in recovery is they streak count.

Sathiya Sam [00:33:02]:
So I'm 60 days clean of porn. I'm 120 days clean, whatever it might be. We don't do streak counting at Deep Clean because the implication of a streak is that it will end.

Lora Cheadle [00:33:12]:
True.

Sathiya Sam [00:33:13]:
So, I personally would rather have somebody gradually over longer periods of time have their, let's call it their relapse rate, improve steadily and incrementally than somebody get a really long streak only to binge hard and basically start at ground zero again.

Lora Cheadle [00:33:29]:
Ah, yeah.

Sathiya Sam [00:33:30]:
So, I'm a data person, I'm analytical. So, I tell my guys, look, if you're a numbers person, instead of counting streaks, track trends. So, how many slips are you having every month and is that number going in the right direction? And it's a little bit more difficult upfront because you don't get the exhilaration of a streak, but it does mean that after 4, 5, 6 months, maybe you've gone from 13 bad days in a month to 3 bad days per month. And if you keep going on the right trajectory, you'll eventually be zero. And that's kind of the idea. And that's typically what we see with our clients. It's always a little bit rocky initially, then they get momentum going. So, that's what I mean when we're saying not perfectionism.

Sathiya Sam [00:34:14]:
It's not about getting everything clean and clear right away. It's actually better to play that long game and track your trends over longer periods of time.

Lora Cheadle [00:34:22]:
I really appreciate that because also from a neuroscience point of view, When you think about the big rush that you were getting from the addiction to go from this huge rush, this huge hit to another huge hit of a clean streak, that's just kind of in a way replacing one addiction with another.

Sathiya Sam [00:34:43]:
Oh, wow. Good point.

Lora Cheadle [00:34:44]:
You know, and when you think about, yeah, no, I'm improving and it is a trajectory to me. What I see is we are weaning the brain off of some of those chemicals. We are creating, I love the name deep clean, but we're creating a clean high because the high is from living clean, not from, woo, I did this.

Sathiya Sam [00:35:06]:
That's such a good point. I often, it's funny, I actually make that, I haven't heard it framed that way, but I really like that. I have to remember that. I often talk about that when guys kind of do quick fixes with pornography, like an internet filter as an example, Like, if we really break it down, the message of pornography is if you want something, you can get your reward as quickly as possible in the way you want it. And so when guys come to me and they're like, hey, how do I quit porn as quickly as possible? I always kind of chuckle a bit. Because even if I did have an answer to that question, which I don't, I would literally just be reinforcing the part of your brain that's addicted to pornography that's used to getting its rewards as quickly as possible. So I think you hit the nail on the head.

Lora Cheadle [00:35:44]:
Yeah, yeah. So I want to know a little bit more about The deep clean program and your process. And the reason that I ask about that is I think it's really important for both partners. So women, if you're, if your partner is going through this, please share the episode, but also for the supporting partner to say, what does this look like? Because not only does the man want to quit pornography as soon as possible, I want my husband fixed. Just take him and fix him. Why can't you just fix him? Just go fix, fix, fix, fix.

Sathiya Sam [00:36:14]:
Yeah.

Lora Cheadle [00:36:15]:
And I think it's important to understand this is how the process works. This is how the program works. So you have a realistic expectation because one of the things that I get a lot is people come to me after they've been in other programs and you probably get this too. And one of the questions I always ask is what didn't work? Because I want to educate people as to what is snake oil? What Probably isn't going to work long-term. Why did this fail for you? And what can we do based on who you are to actually make you successful this time?

Sathiya Sam [00:36:50]:
Yeah. So, yeah, maybe I'll set this up with kind of the core underlying principle of the Deep Clean methodology is that this is a heart-level problem and therefore it requires heart-level solutions. If you had a weed in the middle of your lawn, you could run it over with a lawnmower and it would look clean for a couple days, but it would grow back because the root system is still there. If you don't want the weed to grow back, you have to get to the roots. And pornography addiction is very similar. You can modify behavior with an internet filter or a lofty promise, but if you really want to get to the roots of it, you have to kind of get to the heart of the issue. And I That has always anchored what we've done at Deep Clean, but I began to study successful recoveries, my own being one of them, but many others. And, I found that all of them basically had 3 things in common that got to the roots of the issue.

Sathiya Sam [00:37:48]:
Number one is they built self-awareness, and we can talk a little bit more about what all these mean. The second is that we healed the heart. And, the third is a shift in identity.

Lora Cheadle [00:37:59]:
Yeah.

Sathiya Sam [00:37:59]:
So, the Deep Clean Method is built on these 3 pillars. That's Literally the entire system in a nutshell, and I explain it in more detail in my book, The Last Relapse, but it's build self-awareness, heal the heart, and shift your identity. And when you experience those 3 in the context of community, I find that guys become unstoppable. And the thing that I want the women listening to the show to hear is the reason that having a roots-based approach is so important is because not only did your husband have an addiction that hurt your marriage, Mm-hmm. But your husband also had emotional immaturity. He probably had some trauma. He probably had some lies he was believing about himself and poor self-esteem and low self-image that he was bringing into your marriage. So when you take a roots-based approach to quitting pornography, you don't just eliminate the bad thing that was causing you pain.

Sathiya Sam [00:38:48]:
You actually get a completely new husband in the process who has emotional maturity, who knows how to regulate, who can label his emotions, who's worked through trauma and healed from it, who has a better thought life and understands how to manage his thought life appropriately. And so, he's not just going to show up differently because he doesn't have pornography, but he now has skills and he's developed in a way that's going to cause him to show up differently for you in the marriage, but also for your kids, for the community, and everything else. And that's what we see time and time again is with this roots-based deep clean system, guys are getting promotions at work. We have wives reaching out to us like, I don't know what you're doing with my husband, but please keep doing it. You know, we're getting those messages because we're actually getting to the roots of the issue. And that's kind of the deep clean method in a bit of a nutshell.

Lora Cheadle [00:39:35]:
And see, this is why I just love you and your work so much. It mirrors my own philosophy in so many different ways, first of all, but it makes sense because it is about the roots of the issue. And it's the difference between treating the fever and treating the cause of the fever.

Sathiya Sam [00:39:54]:
That's right.

Lora Cheadle [00:39:55]:
And yeah, it's so important to get to what's real and whether it is pornography addiction or cheating, they're coping mechanisms and people have coping mechanisms because they need to grow up in the most loving way possible. You know, I'm not saying just grow up, but they need to develop that sense of self. They need to address their trauma, move through their problems. My husband is and was a wonderful man with a lot of trauma and a lot of pain. And it takes a lot of time to heal that. And that trauma and that pain and that weird identity around it being entitled to things based on his lack of self-worth.

Sathiya Sam [00:40:41]:
Wow.

Lora Cheadle [00:40:42]:
That takes a lot to address. But yes, it's fundamentally changed who he is. And when you talk about women calling and saying, my husband's different, yes, they are. They become different people. And that's magical and powerful. And that's what this life is about.

Sathiya Sam [00:40:59]:
Yeah. And it's not as hard as it sounds. You know, I think what's funny is when you kind of settle for these chintzier solutions, that actually makes it way harder. That's how you get in these cycles of I'm clean for 120 days and then you fall off the wagon and then you have to kind of do it all over again. This roots-based approach actually doesn't take nearly as long in the grand scheme of things. It's actually much, much easier.

Lora Cheadle [00:41:20]:
Yeah.

Sathiya Sam [00:41:21]:
And I will tell you again, because I'm talking to women here, for me, the greatest indicator, especially with a married man, that he's making progress is he gets some kind of feedback from his wife. Like, whoa, in 30 years, we've never been able to talk about that without you getting defensive. That was different. I had a guy, he's a very successful entrepreneur, probably in his early 60s. And every time we're on it, we do a group call, we always start with wins. And his win a couple— this is probably like a month or two ago, but his win was my wife initiated sex with me for the first time in about 30 years.

Lora Cheadle [00:41:57]:
Wow.

Sathiya Sam [00:41:58]:
I'm like, dude, that is the best. I don't care how long it's been without pornography. That tells me everything I need to know.

Lora Cheadle [00:42:03]:
Yeah, that's huge.

Sathiya Sam [00:42:05]:
That's what it's about, right? Like if you're really getting to the heart of the matter, everything else kind of starts to fall into place.

Lora Cheadle [00:42:11]:
Yeah, it really does. Okay. I want to briefly walk through these 3 steps. Self-aware. Let's talk about that too, because I think often people are like, yeah, I'm self-aware, but we're not. Say a little bit more about what that means.

Sathiya Sam [00:42:26]:
Yeah. Well, self-awareness kind of gets, it gets misconstrued quite a bit. We basically whittle it down to a couple core things. So, one would be, one would be I'm trying to think of how to frame this. Defining thoughts, labeling emotions, and naming needs.

Lora Cheadle [00:42:42]:
Yes.

Sathiya Sam [00:42:43]:
And this is a big thing for guys. I think women naturally do this and then secondly are encouraged to do it even when they're growing up, especially through their social constructs. For men, it's the opposite. So, this is a big thing is if you don't know the need that porn was filling, you will never actually successfully quit pornography. And if you do, you will likely just replace it with some other addiction.

Lora Cheadle [00:43:06]:
Yes.

Sathiya Sam [00:43:09]:
So building self-awareness really starts here. And then I would say the second element of self-awareness, which is very much attached to what I just mentioned, is regulation. Just having the tools and the skills to regulate your nervous system when you do get in a heated conversation, you feel overwhelmed, you're feeling anxious, you're feeling stressed. Most of what I spend my time doing as a coach is teaching guys how to regulate and optimizing. We call it the red zone, green zone plan. That's Dr. Patrick Carnes' term. But we just help them optimize their green zone plan.

Sathiya Sam [00:43:38]:
And that honestly, that's kind of the gateway to all of the other work that we do after that.

Lora Cheadle [00:43:42]:
Yeah. I just want to say replace anything with naming this, what this need is filling. What is cheating filling? What is alcohol filling? What is pornography filling? What is scrolling on your phone filling? I mean, even what is taking a walk in nature filling? When you name that need, wow. The world shifts.

Sathiya Sam [00:44:03]:
Well, you just become in control of your life again. It's a powerless place to— I don't want to watch pornography. I don't know why I watch it. That's a very powerless experience. But when you understand, actually, most of my life has felt out of control because of the environment I grew up in, and pornography is the 10 minutes a day that I actually feel in control of my life, that's actually really powerful. And now we can talk a little bit about what you can do about that and how does that need for control get met in a different way. But otherwise, you're just kind of a victim to your circumstances and your urges.

Lora Cheadle [00:44:32]:
Yeah. Then the second thing, heal the heart. That just brings tears to my eyes because so many men, especially women have broken hearts too, but so many men have such tender needs. And because we have been culturally conditioned not to have tender needs as a man, so many men Yeah, this is a big one.

Sathiya Sam [00:44:57]:
And I think a lot of guys say, I grew up in a safe home, I don't have any trauma, I don't have any of that. I was definitely that guy for years. And I'll use my own story here as an example. My mom, an amazing woman, very present physically, not very present emotionally. And one of the things that I realized in my own recovery journey, I was in an office with a therapist, and this therapist was helping me realize that actually I had lived most of my life with a kind of low-grade feeling of emotional neglect. And it's not that my mom consciously neglected me, she has her own story that was contributing to why she wasn't able to provide for me emotionally what I needed. But because that need went unmet so consistently, I was chasing girls and then when I got exposed to pornography, pornography was really the ultimate solve for that unmet need in my heart. And I didn't realize that until, you know, we're talking decades later.

Sathiya Sam [00:45:48]:
So healing the heart in this environment looked like forgiving my mom for that, like really releasing her and then starting to figure out what are better ways for me to get those needs met. As an adult, I can't go back and do childhood again, but what's that going to look like? So healing is really about using the different modalities that are out there to work through dynamics of childhood, unprocessed pain, and all the trauma that comes with it. And we have an adage with this pillar, which is, He who is most vulnerable heals the quickest. And so this is where we really, the communal piece becomes very important. When you can kind of go through some of these traumas and some of these difficulties in the context of community and brotherhood, it becomes very, very powerful. Yeah.

Lora Cheadle [00:46:33]:
Yeah. Oh, I love that. And that's right on about he who is most vulnerable heals the quickest. Right on.

Sathiya Sam [00:46:40]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Lora Cheadle [00:46:42]:
And then you talked about shifting the identity. And wow, yeah, that's true. Say more about that.

Sathiya Sam [00:46:48]:
Yeah, I think that typical addiction models say once an addict, always an addict, that kind of thing. We just don't believe in that. I really do believe people can fundamentally change. My core conviction actually is that you can't outbehave your beliefs. And so if you believe that you are an addict and that's just who you are, I think you will always, it'll always be at bay. You'll always be one step away. But we personally believe that your identity can shift. That means you can actually be a new man.

Sathiya Sam [00:47:15]:
That's what my podcast used to be titled. It's called The Man Within now, but I used to be called The New Man because I really do believe every single person has that within them, that capacity to become a new person and to fundamentally change. And the adage we have for this pillar, and this is probably the best way I can summarize it all, is I would rather be 100% my true self and rejected than 80% my true self and accepted. And so we're really trying to foster this bold, unapologetic authenticity. This is who I am and I'm going to own it. That means all the flaws and all the failures and shortcomings, but it also means all the strengths and all the gifts that God's given me and everything that's within me, the value I have to bring to the world. I'm going to own it and I'm going to really go after it. And this is why, again, with the roots-based approach, when guys get to this point, they start to— they start businesses, they make career switches, they get promotions.

Sathiya Sam [00:48:02]:
They, you know, they get more involved at church or in the community the way they always wanted to. Like, there's a very purpose element that's attached to all of this as guys begin to shift their identity. It's amazing to watch.

Lora Cheadle [00:48:13]:
Yeah.

Lora Cheadle [00:48:14]:
And here's the thing too, just speaking from the woman's point of view, that's attractive. That's sexy. I want to be with the man who knows himself. I want to be with the man who can say, these are my flaws and I'm owning them. I mean, that makes me want to lean in. I don't want to be with somebody fake.

Sathiya Sam [00:48:33]:
Yeah, absolutely. I was just speaking with a guy who's been clean of 3 years, sorry, clean of porn for 3 years since he finished our program. And he was just telling me about everything he's done in the 3 years. He's helped his wife heal from an alcohol addiction. He's ran a marathon. With all the free time and mental energy he had, he started going into work early. And so he got a promotion. In fact, he's gotten a couple promotions and after years of dealing with infertility, they're about to have their first kid.

Lora Cheadle [00:49:01]:
Oh.

Sathiya Sam [00:49:02]:
So, this is what I'm talking about. When you get to the roots and things really start to change at a fundamental foundational level, the world is your oyster and you can do just about anything you want. And I also agree with that. I believe a man is at his best when he's operating on all of these fronts. Yeah, like I said, it never gets old for me. That's the best part of my job.

Lora Cheadle [00:49:25]:
No. And what I want to say, because I think there could be listeners out there who hear some of those claims that, yay, everything is going on, and thinks, well, that's too good to be true. And it's just funny because I was having a— it's not because I was having a conversation with my husband last night and we were saying it's like the on-off switch. Either you are living life right, And things flow, whether it's finances, health, you know, wealth, relationships, having a clean house, having a bed that's made every day, like whatever it is that's important to you when you're on, everything works in all areas. And it's kind of funny to think about, but it's not just, oh, I'm going to fix my body and work out. Oh, I'm going to clean up my diet. Oh, I'm going to manage my addiction. oh, now I'm going to work on my relationship.

Lora Cheadle [00:50:15]:
It is kind of an all or nothing because you're either living life right or you're managing and putting out fires in all of these different areas. Yeah.

Sathiya Sam [00:50:25]:
And it's exhausting, right? It's exhausting to live that way. I think what makes it difficult for people to turn that switch on is it does take work to change, right? And when you've lived in your familiarity, whatever that familiar kind of place is, It's hard. It's hard to make that change. And that's why for the women that are listening, I think this is why you have so much power to actually— you can't change your husband, but I think you can encourage him to change by having those upfront conversations like the conversations Lora's telling you to have, by drawing some really clear lines in the sand and actually upholding those boundaries, doing some of those things. Those are some of the greatest gifts you can give your husband. Because sometimes that's what he needs for that switch to turn on. And when the switch turns on, man, you can't stop that guy.

Lora Cheadle [00:51:12]:
Yeah, yeah, so true. So in summary, I think your book especially would be good for any man, whether it's a pornography addiction, a scrolling on my phone addiction, a cheating addiction, or just having an addictive component to their personality.

Sathiya Sam [00:51:32]:
I would agree. Yeah, it's funny. I've had people go through the book to lose weight, which is not what the book's about at all. It's like the subtitle is literally like about how to quit pornography addiction. But yeah, I would agree for all those categories, the book is a great place. It would be okay if I told them the best way to get their hands on it.

Lora Cheadle [00:51:46]:
That's what I was just gonna say. Will you please let them know where they can find the book, where they can learn more about you, your podcast, your program? Because my hope for everybody listening is for them to have this beautiful life because we get one life and I want to be the person to provide the resources. And this is a resource that can actually help your partner heal, not just put a Band-Aid on something and a smiley face sticker and it's all good. So yes, please share everything.

Sathiya Sam [00:52:19]:
Yeah. So the book is called The Last Relapse and your listeners can actually get a free copy of it if they would like at thelastrelapsebook.com. And if you do prefer a physical copy, you can buy anywhere books are sold. We actually donate all the profit to charity from that book. It's very much like we just want to resource as many people with this information as we can. The book also comes with a free workbook and it comes with a free community. So all the things we talked about today, you can actually get that with incredible depth just by going to thelastrelapsebook.com. And then I just need the email to know where to send it to.

Sathiya Sam [00:52:52]:
Everything else that's related to us, our community, coaching, all that kind of stuff, deepcleancoaching.com is kind of the main hub for all that. And you can probably find what you're looking for from there on. So, thelastrelapsebook.com for the book and deepcleancoaching.com.

Lora Cheadle [00:53:07]:
That's wonderful. Thank you so much. And yes, please reach out, connect, just be curious, learn, educate yourself because it is a wonderful life. There is so much joy and hope and beauty. beauty on the other side. And it's not about getting there as quickly as possible. It's about getting there in a way that will keep you there. So thank you so much for your wisdom, for your vulnerability, and for being a shining light, not only for the men, but for the women and the families who are out there, you know, mired in this muck.

Lora Cheadle [00:53:42]:
Thank you so much.

Sathiya Sam [00:53:43]:
I have enjoyed this conversation.

Lora Cheadle [00:53:45]:
Thank you, Lora.

Sathiya Sam [00:53:46]:
Thank you so much.

Lora Cheadle [00:53:47]:
You're welcome. Listeners, please reach out. I will put everything in the show notes. And as usual, have an amazing week and always remember to flaunt exactly who you are, because who you are is always more than enough.

Lora Cheadle [00:54:04]:
Before you go, if today's episode felt as though I was speaking directly to you, I don't want you to leave with more information, but no ideas about what to do next. Whether you're trying to determine if reconciliation is possible, or if you're ready to reclaim all the parts of yourself that you sacrificed along the way, let's begin by figuring out exactly where you are and what you need right now. You can book your private introductory session with me at introductorysession.com. That's introductorysession.com. And together we can find your next step.

Lora Cheadle [00:54:51]:
Tune in next time to Flaunt: Find Your Sparkle and Create a Life You Love After Infidelity or Betrayal with Lora Cheadle, every Wednesday at 7:00 AM and 7:00 PM Eastern Standard Time on syndicated Dream Vision Uncover the truth of what's possible for you on the other side of betrayal and develop the skills and strategies necessary to embrace the future and flourish today. Download your free betrayal recovery toolkit at betrayalrecoveryguide.com.