Can Your Marriage Really Be Better After Infidelity? With Hasani and Danielle Pettiford of Couple’s Academy

Lora Cheadle (00:01.489)
Are you ready to talk about infidelity in terms of the couplehood? I know we spend so much time and effort talking about ourselves and our journey and then understanding who we are and then understanding what our partner does. But sometimes it's also really important to focus on the couplehood. I know you've heard me say this before, but infidelity and recovering from infidelity means

Yes, I have to focus on me. Yes, my partner has to focus on him, but we both also have to focus on the couple, the relationship, because in my eyes, that's kind of the third entity here. Today we have got a couple of pretty incredible guests. Hasani and Danielle Petiford. They are the founders of the Couples Academy. They are absolutely experts.

in this area, not only professionally, but also personally based on their own experience. So welcome to the show. I'm really excited to have this conversation.

hasani pettiford (01:09.624)
Thank you for having us. Yes. Excited to be here.

Lora Cheadle (01:11.287)
Yeah, you're welcome. Good. Let's just start from the beginning. Would you like to share a little bit of about your journey and what brought you here?

hasani pettiford (01:22.36)
Well, I mean, I love sharing this part of this story because most people look at us and they see see where we've arrived and they assume we've always had a great marriage, but obviously that's not true. interestingly, when we started out, we went to become certified family coaches because we really were going through a tough time in our marriage. and so it was really focused on us. We thought to ourselves, every time we go out, we meet other couples and everyone seems to be miserable.

And so we're also miserable. And so we were just thinking like there's gotta be some life after marriage that we have not figured out. So we went ahead, we got certified, we became coaches to fix our own marriage. And that's really what the beginning turnaround was because as we began to fix our own marriage and we learn some things about ourselves, we learned that you know what it's not just him, some of the stuff is me as well. we decided that we were going to launch an organization that just helped.

Lora Cheadle (02:13.258)
Mm-hmm.

hasani pettiford (02:20.105)
Other couples who wanted to be happy. And what happened is really interesting, and that is that.

We found ourselves sitting around our kitchen table talking to couples about really serious things. Like they were going through crisis. They had experienced infidelity, financial, physical, emotional. And we just found ourselves kind of snowballed into this coaching seat with couples. And we realized, you know what, happy couples don't need help being happy. It's the couples that are really struggling that really have to learn how to navigate their way out of it and actually have to learn that there is a way to navigate out of it.

And what I would say is that, you know, our purpose was birthed out of pain. And that may be the case for a lot of people. And so relationally, you know, within the first five years of our marriage, man, we experienced a lot. And at that point, you know, the questions of do you stay, do you go, what do you do? And I remember us having so many fights and the top five issues that most couples struggle with that we work with in our practice, we struggle with.

communicate, finances, parenting, in-laws, sex, like all of those challenges. And it reaches a boiling point where you start to ask yourself, is it worth continuing in this relationship? And so when the idea of divorce came on the table, I I've realized that, you know what? Maybe I need to divorce me from myself.

Lora Cheadle (03:25.205)
Mm-hmm.

hasani pettiford (03:47.892)
And that's where the internal work began to take place. And that's why we decided to kind of move forward and get the help. Because I resist it, like most men. Men resist getting help for an incalculable number of reasons. And once we reached our breaking point and I really felt like she was literally going to leave, because that's what we find with men, like I never thought she would leave. So I continued to just act up and be who I wanted to be. But when I felt like she was really gonna leave, that's when I became motivated to do what, you know, whatever was necessary to work on me.

To work on the marriage, and that kind of birthed what we now have as couples academy. And I and I have to say this, I have to add this, and that is that I had been begging Hasani to go to counseling for so long, to the point where I just became very apathetic. Like I just didn't care. It was like, you do you, I'll do me. I'm over here, you're over there. Leave me be. And there was something that I said that struck him like the cord of a cello, and that was that he decliterized me. And I screamed that.

Lora Cheadle (04:46.262)
Mm-hmm.

hasani pettiford (04:47.695)
In the middle of an argument, and it was like time froze. And I think that was the moment where he got the message. Because just like with every couple who struggles with communication, wanting to have sex and all this and that, you want, you want, you want. But I'm here telling you that I don't even feel like a woman around you anymore. So when you get to that level, it feels like nothing's left. And I would always say, once the in-love feeling is gone, it's dead and gone. And I learned that that's not true.

Lora Cheadle (05:15.893)
Yeah. I could appreciate so much about your story. First of all, just that concept of being miserable. How many of us have been miserable? And how many of us don't even necessarily want to admit that we're miserable? Because I think it's so easy. I know in my own marriage, we're going through a phase. he's going through something. It's him, not me. And we legitimately get busy. We have in-laws, kids, jobs. And it's just easy to let

things right. And then to your point, Aslani, yeah, why do so many men resist? Why do we live in that place of stable misery where it's just, yeah, it's miserable, but I'm not doing anything about it.

hasani pettiford (06:04.119)
Ja, think ego, pride.

gets in the way. We are trained to be fixers. So we're supposed to have all the answers. And now we're putting ourselves in a position where we're admitting that we just don't know. And oftentimes we feel like we're gonna be tag teamed by the therapist, like they're gonna have an agenda to fix us or to correct us of our ways. And it's just a whole lot of it's like an uphill battle for a lot of people to really make that decision. But once they make the decision, particularly for men, they're like, my God, this is the best thing that I I could have ever done because it gives me

a voice in a space, a safe environment to be able to share my concerns in a way that I couldn't do on my own.

Lora Cheadle (06:42.539)
Yeah. And then Danielle for you, because I I can relate to to what you said too, and I love declitorize. That's fantastic. Why do we let ourselves get pushed to that point where we feel like that? You know, we're saying things along the way, but why do we let it get there?

hasani pettiford (07:02.017)
Yeah, I think we do a good job of telling ourselves that we're fine. and then you know, and you know, they say fine means frantic, insecure, neurotic, and emotional. And so that's really what's going on, right? But we do a really great job of covering, right? We I feel like we think it's our fiduciary responsibility to cover the image of our spouse. We're always protecting his ego. That's a thing.

Lora Cheadle (07:13.761)
Yes.

Lora Cheadle (07:28.139)
Yes.

hasani pettiford (07:29.065)
And I don't know where we learn that, but we learn that behavior. And so we just let things we kick the can down the road thinking that I'll give him another chance, or eventually he's gonna catch on, or I just have to cover this until something changes. And what's really unfortunate is that one thing about women that I've seen over the years practicing this or working with couples is that women don't really know their capacity of grace. We all have a measure of grace, but when you've ever heard people say when when a woman

Fed up, there ain't nothing you could do about it. That is actually true. We cover a multitude of sins, issues, and problems in our marriage. Most of the time, the things that we walked into with our marriage, we saw them from the very beginning, but we're like, I could deal with that, or I'll fix that, or that'll change. We already knew we had grace to cover that. But when there's abuse, when there's a neglect, and when there's avoidance for so many years, all of a sudden it's like the littlest thing that will just

Lora Cheadle (08:00.896)
Mm-hmm.

hasani pettiford (08:28.845)
break everything. It could be like he left socks on the floor today. You've been through hell, but socks is what blew it up, right? So that's what happens. We just think that it's gonna get better and we're covering so many things and before we know it we are out of grace and we're done.

Lora Cheadle (08:36.567)
Mm-hmm.

Lora Cheadle (08:45.025)
Yeah, I I couldn't agree more. It is just that defining moment and we're done and this is over. Which then is interesting for the man. And and again, we're making some generalities here. Sometimes it doesn't go this way, sometimes it's the male partner that acts that way instead of the feminine partner. But in general, this is I see this pattern repeatedly myself over and over and over. And then when we get to that place and suddenly our partner

hasani pettiford (08:51.98)
That's it.

Lora Cheadle (09:15.019)
Realizes, whoa, she's done. Like you said earlier. So that's the place I'm gonna get serious and make a change. Why not five years ago? Why not now? And I think that can cycle then a whole new argument.

hasani pettiford (09:30.178)
I I think what happens is you come to the realization that men and women are different. We're wired different, we think different, we process different, and we're motivated by different things. So typically, generally speaking, women are motivated by the hope of a future gain, the possibility of what could be, the potential of something. So they're willing to invest time, energy, effort, counseling to make that a reality. Men, on the other hand, generally speaking, are motivated by the fear of loss.

So if they fear that they may one day lose, then they shift into gear and do necess the necessary things. So the timing seems to be off. And so when she's one foot out the door, right? Or she's already left, that's when you see all of this effort. And then the effort is questioned. why now? After all these years, after all this time. So now they question the motivation. But what we've seen is that men generally, it's almost like their eyes open up. They wake up from their stoop.

and they are ready because the idea of this wife leaving them, there's such men lose so much when they lose their wives. And I think what happens is we want the marriage, women want the relationship.

And those are two different things. Very different. The marriage represents partnership. The marriage represents how a wife serves a husband and all the things that she does for that man. He hasn't valued the relationship, the connection, the communication, the intimacy, the all of those things. So you people can be in this on paper picture perfect marriage, money in the bank, beautiful kids, nice neighborhood, but the relationship is hell. And so women reach that breaking point where they just can't take it anymore. And then

And that's when we begin to make the shift on how do we begin to please her relationally. Too late. Too late a lot of times. Unfortunately.

Lora Cheadle (11:24.299)
Yes, yes. And unfortunately, especially for the people that I serve, that breaking point comes on the discovery of infidelity. And I can tell you the exact moment when my husband had that realization. It was a couple weeks after D Day. He came back to our house. He was moving out and he looked at me and I saw this clarity in him that I have never seen before. And he said, I

hasani pettiford (11:32.909)
Mm-hmm.

Lora Cheadle (11:53.333)
Need you to know this was never about you. I am eternally sorry. I am broken. And he left. But it was a huge shift. And that was the moment he got it. And yes, we're still together eight and a half years later, but yeah.

hasani pettiford (12:10.743)
That's awesome. Yeah.

That's really interesting. But I think, you know, what men say, it wasn't you, it was me, right? That time oftentimes it's hard for a woman to accept because I think the blame, the blame game and the blame shifting is first I'm blaming you, then I'm blaming the affair partner. But ultimately, well, what's wrong with me? Am I not pretty enough? Am I not smart enough? Do I not please you enough? And so they take on the guilt for their spouse's behavior. And it can be very true that it had nothing to do with you. And when

Get into the why of the affair, oftentimes there's a revelation in this process because we reveal that there are three contributing factors to why people do what they do. Either there are personal factors, issues that are brought into the relationship that has nothing to do with you, there are relational factors, challenges that we've gone through within our couplehood. I think that's the word you use: couplehood, coupleship. And then there are social factors, things outside of our home that are influencing our home. And I think as Chris.

I think it's gotta be crystal clear what the true why is. Because if we don't know the true why, the spouse can't heal. If we don't know the true why, the b the behavior cannot be corrected, and you find yourself in the same repeated pattern again and again and again.

Lora Cheadle (13:29.153)
Yeah, I I couldn't agree more. If you don't know why, it will happen again.

hasani pettiford (13:34.347)
Mm, for sure.

Lora Cheadle (13:38.135)
Okay, personal. Let's break it down these factors a little bit. Personal factors. I think we've talked a lot about that on this show before. Like my husband had childhood trauma. There's a lot of those personal things that we bring in. Relational. Okay, there's everything that you mentioned earlier: sex, in-laws, money, kids, you name it. I love to explore social a little bit because I think that's a a piece that is often overlooked.

hasani pettiford (14:04.417)
Okay. So one huge social factor is oftentimes a spouse is concerned with their partner's interaction and relationship when it comes to members of the opposite sex. Yes. However, not enough attention may be given to same-sex influences. Because if I roll with a bunch of guys and they're all married but unfaithful, and if I'm in that environment and around them, birds of a feather flock together, I begin to take on the behaviors, the mannerisms, the mindset.

Or maybe if I have a strong conviction that I'll never do it, the more I place myself in that environment, slowly but surely my convictions begin to dissipate a little bit. And then I begin to justify and rationalize and trivialize. And then now I find myself taking on the same burdens and frustrations that they have, and I don't know how it happened. One thing led to another, and then boom, I find myself in a situation. So that's a social factor that we have to be mindful of. Another social factor is cultural influence.

Influences. I mean, when you live in a, for instance, around the, I don't think any culture has a monopoly on infidelity because it happens everywhere. And our clients span from one continent to the other. I think we worked with all seven continents except for Antarctica, right? So infidelity is everywhere. But there are certain cultures where it is normal, it is acceptable, it is just a part of what it is. You know, my dad did it, my uncles did it, my brothers did it, and let's just flip it because men aren't the

Only ones who are unfaithful, right? Exposed to it as well. And it's become such a part of the culture. It's a cultural norm. And you've taken it on to the point where infidelity is almost an inevitability, right? I mean there's many that we can look at. You know, you can't overlook social, like social media, right? Because this is this is something that's really taking over. this is where you're putting yourself in a position that naturally you would never be in. Like naturally you would never have access to certain people.

Lora Cheadle (15:34.455)
No, they're not.

Lora Cheadle (15:51.979)
Yes.

hasani pettiford (16:02.775)
That you have direct access to just by sliding in DMs, right? So you can always make an excuse as to why I need to connect with this person or chat with this person in a meridian of social networks that create this connection. They say that, you know, online dating, the reason why couples or people who meet online connect so fast is because there's no physical just yet, right? You're opening up your heart, you're learning about this person, you're connecting on such a strong level, like you're supposed to, as opposed to

Lora Cheadle (16:06.955)
Yes.

hasani pettiford (16:32.575)
one-on-one where you there's awkwardness and you know things happen out of order. Well in social world you get to do that with complete strangers all the time. And so if you have that intention and you don't have those boundaries set we find that a lot of people have found their in infidelity partners on social media just having dialogue.

Lora Cheadle (16:50.027)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

hasani pettiford (16:52.263)
And another, another huge hotbed is the workplace. yes. That's a social environment, right? And so some people, depending upon your career, maybe travel is a major part of it, right? Maybe you're an athlete. We work with a lot of athletes. Maybe you're a stewardess or a flight attendant or a pilot or whatever your job is where you're constantly traveling. Truck drivers. You're in city in one state after the other. There are places and spaces where you can go and never never

Lora Cheadle (16:57.505)
Big time.

Lora Cheadle (17:15.833)
why that

hasani pettiford (17:22.127)
Never be exposed, right? So that's and even if you're not traveling, if I'm spending every single day in a cubicle.

Next to someone else. How was your weekend? Yeah. Tell me about it. My work connection. The work wife. The work wife and work husband. Common. So we're building connection. There's intimacy that's established in that connection. Think about it. The average couple, statistically, according to a US and UK report, it says that the average couple spends about four minutes communicating a day. But now you go to work and you're there for eight to ten to twelve to fourteen hours a day, building deep bonds and relationships.

Relationships with coworkers, it's very easy for one thing to lead to the other, and before you know it, you're in a full blown affair.

Lora Cheadle (18:08.137)
Right. And I like how you said when one thing leads to another, because I have never met a person who just one day says, Hey, I'm gonna go cheat. I'm going to go betray my wife. I'm going to go betray my husband. That's it. It's these slow incrementals. You j you're right. You've worked on a project with somebody, you've really gotten to know them. You're gonna go out and celebrate with the team at the end of this project, you all go out.

The next week. This wow, I I I miss our conversations. Let's just have a quick coffee. Perfect. How was your weekend? Here's a little text. Look at my new shorts. Isn't this fun? Ooh, you look good in those shorts. I mean, I I hate to say that it's innocent, but it is innocent. It's one normal kind of natural step that somehow ends up crossing the line. And I think that's why so often people are saying, I don't even know how I got here. This isn't who I am.

hasani pettiford (18:45.165)
Yeah.

hasani pettiford (19:03.733)
Mm-hmm. I was gonna say, you know, you say innocence and I say ignorance because, you know, oftentimes couples really don't understand the importance of establishing boundaries. And they also just don't know who they are. I mean, we can't ignore pathology either, right? People are operating in ways that are ingrained in them from the family marinade that they were raised in. I can't tell you how many people who have been unfaithful say things like, Well, it's all that I saw.

Lora Cheadle (19:08.886)
Yes.

hasani pettiford (19:31.862)
Like I never saw anything different. Like my grandfather did it, my dad did it, like so I'm doing it. Or, you know, I never saw a mom with one man. I saw multiple men. So pathology has a lot to do with it. And we'd study this for years. We work with our couples using Enneagram to help them understand their personality styles and the pathology that they come from. Because if you don't know who you are and what's embedded in you, you won't understand when you're walking into literally a minefield of opportunities.

Lora Cheadle (19:32.299)
Yes.

hasani pettiford (20:01.775)
To betray yourself and destroy your marriage. So yes, there's a little bit of an innocence to it, but it's really ignorance because they did not know, hey, this is a boundary that I'm not even prepared to to hold up. This is an area that I'm not even equipped for and I didn't even know.

Lora Cheadle (20:18.357)
Right. And I want to tag on to that real quickly. We don't talk about that traditionally in things like pre-marriage counseling. I think there's this assumption that, well, people know once that they get once they get married, they'll be faithful. Nobody ever told me, this means, Laura, you have to act this way. This means, Sean, you have to act that way. And on the one hand, I can hear people thinking, well, why should we have to say that?

Because we need to expressly and explicitly say it. And to your point about the social factors, which I did one of which was I was really excited to cover, during one of my husband's affairs, it took place in his high school town. And he would go back home. He would live with his high school best friend who was single. And they would go party and they would go pick up girls, just like they did when they were in high school.

And it was almost like stepping into another world, party, go act like you're 16 again, come home, step back into husband and father role. Did anybody ever say, like in premarital counseling, hey, this could be a temptation? It's sometimes difficult when you see a former partner or who are you s nobody ever talks about that and we sure should.

hasani pettiford (21:43.224)
We sure should. I there are many couples that we have that actually have that story themselves that they never discussed.

What are we gonna do about our opposite sex friends that we've had our whole lives now that we're married? Right? And so not always did a couple go to high school together. There are oftentimes couples come from completely different states, cities, countries, and everything else, and they're bringing their relationships with them with zero boundaries. And nobody understands that there's a a major threat at hand, that there is an actual thing that takes place between a male and a female where attraction can develop just because we like the same things.

Lora Cheadle (21:56.481)
Yes.

hasani pettiford (22:20.159)
And there's no tension like the tension between a married couple. And so when you become one and when kids start coming into the play and bills and all these responsibilities start piling on you, and you've got an opposite sex friend that you never had a problem with, and you start leaning on that friend, it opens the door to so many things that you really just did not plan for. You know, Shirley Glass wrote a

Lora Cheadle (22:36.044)
Yeah.

hasani pettiford (22:44.577)
Book many years ago, Not Just Friends, and it talks about how there's been this evolution of infidelity where many, many years ago it was very transactional, like there was a clear boundary. I knew I was crossing it and I was gonna do something I shouldn't do, and then I'm coming back over to this boundary. But the two milestones that have really increased infidelity, number one, women entering into the workplace. So now men and women are in close proximity. Number two, social media, right? So boundaries and the borders are now gone.

Lora Cheadle (23:11.703)
Mm-hmm.

hasani pettiford (23:14.511)
And so what we believe is that every single relationship on the planet Earth, whether we're talking about male, male, female, female, or male-female, every single relationship is based upon some form of attraction. Now, may not be physical.

May not be sexual or emotional, but today and your sport. There's something that draws you to that person. There's some shared commonality, shared interest. And if you haven't had conversations with your spouse about what is appropriate and inappropriate when dealing with members of the opposite sex, it's easy for lines to become blurred and you find yourself stepping into something you didn't even realize was a problem, right? And so that's what we see a lot. These friendships, associations, connections, whether

Lora Cheadle (23:53.355)
Mm-hmm.

hasani pettiford (24:05.377)
The workplace, whether they are in ministry, whether it's somebody I see when I go to the gym, whether it's the woman who bags my groceries or the male that I see a couple of times a week, these relationships are formed. And this is why we have to have a conversation. What is appropriate or inappropriate when dealing with members of the opposite sex? Said a different way. If another human being, hope this is okay to say, has a minor and a pulse that does not belong to my wife, if another human being has a penis and a pulse that doesn't belong.

Lora Cheadle (24:28.716)
Yes.

hasani pettiford (24:35.297)
To my husband, what are we saying is appropriate or inappropriate? So it's clear to us, it's clear to everyone else, and these lines will never be crossed.

Lora Cheadle (24:44.075)
Yeah, yeah. And that is such a difficult conversation for people to have, which I find fascinating.

hasani pettiford (24:52.001)
I think it's interesting that people aren't aware that there is something called the dangerous partner profile.

Right, and that we all have a person that we are uniquely attracted to and would totally fall for that is not necessarily our partner. And so if you have all these friends around you and there's no boundaries being set because you didn't know you needed to, it it it's more likely than not that you could fall for this person, that you could fall in many ways, touching, connecting, dating, and becoming secretive. Not everything is sex, by the way. Like we think that's we think that's the big hurrah.

Lora Cheadle (25:24.491)
No

hasani pettiford (25:27.457)
Like infidelity means sex. There's so many forms of infidelity. Secrecy can be more of a heartbreak in many cases for people than actual physical sex because it's a betrayal of the heart. And so we have to understand that there are many levels to this that we have to really be conscious about avoiding.

Lora Cheadle (25:40.065)
Yes.

Lora Cheadle (25:46.569)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And you know, we've talked about the opposite partner or the opposite sex and that sexual or emotional attraction. But I also want to talk about sometimes our friends, you go girl, you don't put up with that. You could do so much better. And I think there is such toxic conversation also on social media. I mean, yes, is it good to expose narcissism abuse? What yes, it's vitally important.

But relationships are not perfect. They are not harmonious all the time. Being married is a beautiful commitment through the hard times. And I know, especially early on in my marriage, such nasty talk with some of the women about what he doesn't do and how he doesn't do that. And you can do better and you look at you.

hasani pettiford (26:37.281)
Well that's interesting. The thing is is that it this is why we talk about our hub and spoke, right? Because it's important who you surround yourself with when you're married. And you know, it's not that you have to ditch your girlfriends that are single once you get married, but you do need to kind of check in with who you've surrounded yourself around because sometimes it's lonely on the outside looking in, right? And so if you're going through something in your marriage, that sometimes your single girlfriends are like, Girl, you don't need him, look at me, I'm single. And we start to fantasize a whole other lifestyle.

It's important that the people that you surround yourself with are for the marriage. Your girlfriends, whether they're single or married, need to be for your marriage. His friends need to be for the marriage. The pastor needs to be for the marriage. It is important for you to be able to release information and share with someone, right? Someone that is safe. And if you have a safe person, whatever you say to them is going to come back, the advice is gonna come back. You could do it. It's gonna be encouraging, it's going to be marriage-centered advice as opposed to

Single minded advice. And and and with that being said, you really have to be careful who you give your ear to.

Lora Cheadle (27:38.795)
Yes.

hasani pettiford (27:43.468)
Because hearing the wrong thing from the wrong person will destroy your marriage. I'm not gonna go to somebody who makes $35,000 a year with a million-dollar idea. I'm not gonna go to someone who's morbidly obese for fitness advice and weight loss advice. I'm not gonna go to a single about marriage advice. I'm not gonna go to an unhappy, unhealthy couple.

about my marriage, right? People have a tendency of sharing their problems with people who share their problems.

Instead of going to people who represent their solution or have their answer. So so yeah, I I being around the wrong and even if you have single friends, let me just say this. You know, we're married. Should we disqualify our friends because they're not? No. No. But what we've been intentional to do is rather than us entering into their single world, we bring them into our married environment. That way they're influenced by us and we're not influenced by what singles can do that we can't do. Yeah.

Lora Cheadle (28:45.621)
Right, right. And I think a part of that also is, and you had mentioned this earlier, really knowing who you are and what you value. Because it is easy to get pulled this way and that, whether it's in the digital world or in the real world. And yes, I know who I am and I know what I value and I know other people can do different things. It's I think it's analogous to turning off the television set when something comes on that you don't want to watch. I don't want to be a part of that. I'm turning it off. It's

hasani pettiford (29:13.058)
Well

Lora Cheadle (29:15.667)
It's it's not like, my god, we're married now and everything has to change all the time and everything is this strict rigid boundary. It's who are we and what do we value and how do we want our life to be?

hasani pettiford (29:28.245)
Y you know what I think is interesting is that even though values seem to be, you know, fundamental things, I'm shocked w that so many people just don't know their values.

They really don't. I mean, it's actually a part of my process to help you define your values. And I think values do shift and change. I mean, you're not gonna have the same values as a single woman that you would have as a married woman, but because you don't look at those things and haven't defined those things, you're a married woman or married man operating with single values. And you did not even know that. And I think that's what becomes the crisis. It's almost like you're having a personality crisis because it's like, you know, I'm no longer who I used to be. I don't ri I I'm

Miss the old version of me, but the old version of you doesn't fit into the model of a married lifestyle. And this is where you have all this toxic behavior taking place. And either you don't know your values, or you and your spouse have two completely different sets of values, which is causing conflict. And this is why I think it's important that couples have a shared value system, a relational code of ethics to govern their marriage by, because if you do, that's

That means that you know, listen, at the end of the day, you've heard this term, well, you know what, we're we're just gonna agree to disagree.

Lora Cheadle (30:46.199)
Right.

hasani pettiford (30:46.313)
And because people have agreed to disagree, it's hard for them to agree on anything. Where are we going to eat? I don't know. Like, figure it out. But when you have a principle that we're gonna stand on the principle and the law of agreement, doesn't mean that you always will think the same way. But if you're moving in that direction because of a shared value system and so on and so forth, it just makes the relationship a whole lot better. People divorce because of what? Irreconcilable differences. So where's the shared commonality that your marriage should be founded in? And this

Lora Cheadle (31:11.595)
Right.

Lora Cheadle (31:16.183)
Mm-hmm.

hasani pettiford (31:16.237)
That's a that's a risky conversation to have with a lot of women because it kind of verges on this whole like shush and submit thing, like I should submit. But you know, we've discovered that there's actually a superpower in finding alignment somewhere. You know, I wrote a book called Let's Agree to Agree, right? This doesn't mean that I'm losing the arm wrestling match. This means that even though we have differences of opinion, which is okay and common, that we can still find somewhere in this discussion to agree so that we

Lora Cheadle (31:29.897)
Yes.

Yes.

hasani pettiford (31:46.147)
can continue to move forward. But what couples miss is that when you stay in in disalignment and out of agreement, it's a full stop. You can't move forward without agreement.

Lora Cheadle (31:54.517)
Right. Right. Right. I wanna ask a few more questions around that because yes, I always say there's three people in a relationship. There's you, there's me, and there's us. So when you talk about the values of the relationship, I wanna talk more about that because I think a lot of listeners might be thinking, Wow, I never thought about that. I was busy trying to put my values on him, and he was busy trying to put his values on me, and then we just agreed to disagree.

Let's talk some more about how do we create those shared values, that shared alignment, those shared rules for our marriage.

hasani pettiford (32:31.981)
First of all, I think that there are many books out there. We've written one, but there are many books out there where it's just a book of questions. Yeah. Right. Like I have a book called that I wrote called Study Your Wife. And it's a six hundred and fifty questions. And these are topics and conversations most people will never have. And talking through it, you know, things come out that you would have never articulated before because not that you're hiding it. There was just no space and room or thought to even do it. And in that, I think wrestling through ideas and concepts, you form a shared

Philosophy that serves you as a couple. But I think there's got to be a willingness because I think most people are married to certain beliefs and convictions and ideas, and we have had to learn to divorce ourselves from things that really don't serve us or the marriage. And so having a willingness to be open to consider new concepts. One of the things practically that we did when we first started dating, we said, you know what? We both have had previous relationships. We want this thing to work. Let's read some relationship books together. Let's dream.

Lora Cheadle (33:31.457)
Yes.

hasani pettiford (33:32.008)
From the same well together. Because in that process, we're able to form beliefs and ideas together that serve the collective us. There's nothing wrong with my individual path of growth and her individual path of growth, but what are we doing together as a couple in order to form the right foundation? And so if it's as simple as taking out paper and pen, hey, what how would you define fidelity? What is our working operational definition?

For fidelity or monogamy or communication. Like, what does it mean to you? What does it mean to me? And forming something that works for the collective you. And I think the most valuable part of doing those exercises has always been hearing a perspective of him that I didn't agree with, right? Because oftentimes those things go into the secret place, and you know, you find out about that in a totally jump scare kind of a way, right? You know, if if he feels that it's not something

Lora Cheadle (34:12.607)
And

Lora Cheadle (34:24.927)
Yeah.

Lora Cheadle (34:29.483)
Yes.

hasani pettiford (34:31.641)
Safe or she feels that it's not safe to tell me this because I haven't created that safe space, then they'll just go hide it. And I don't know about that part of them. And that's where in the darkness, that's where darkness brews is in the darkness. So, you know, having an opportunity to discover and talk about things and figure out, okay, so we we misalign here. Let's let's figure out where we can align because that really doesn't serve me. How can this, you know, how can we negotiate something that works for

Both of us that has been the j the game changer for both of us. Now let's pause. She used a powerful word, she said negotiate, right? So most couples have been taught, hey, compromise is the key to a successful relationship because if you just learn to come, but compromise creates a win-lose scenario. Someone wins, someone loses. And usually whoever's the more dominant one, the more assertive one, winds up winning, and the other one is always losing to the other one's benefit. But a negotiation is

Lora Cheadle (35:06.604)
Yes.

hasani pettiford (35:31.511)
Two partners who are on opposite ends of an issue and they meet in the middle. And there's a process that we take couples through to reach a negotiation, a simple four-step process in areas where they've struggled for years and have had no alignment. And once you learn that power of marital negotiation, it really is a game changer.

Lora Cheadle (35:51.679)
Mm-hmm. And that's one of the things I appreciate about Couples Academy and your work, that it is focused on the relationship. And we get so focused in I have to do my work and you have to do that. And that you're right, the compromise, that battle. I gave this for you. Well, I gave this for you. I love the word negotiate, especially as a lawyer. I love the word negotiate. Because if you negotiate successfully, you don't have to go to court.

hasani pettiford (36:19.661)
Hmm.

Lora Cheadle (36:19.711)
If you go to court, it is win lose. If you negotiate, hey, I've just I've stepped into my own power and my own sovereignty because I'm choosing how to solve my problem. I'm not letting a third party judge do it for me.

hasani pettiford (36:33.599)
Yeah, yeah. I love it. That's the whole point. And to speak to something you said earlier, you you you mentioned you said there's me, there's you, and then there's us. And I love that. And I think

Oftentimes in relationships, if we come together, me and her, either A, I lose myself in her, she loses herself in me, which never works, or we create this we're factor, right? Where I don't have to lose my voice, my individuality, my self-expression. Actually, it contributes to the collective whole of us.

Lora Cheadle (37:07.639)
Mm-hmm.

hasani pettiford (37:08.267)
That's something that needs to be negotiated as well because many people feel like I have to die to myself in every single way in order to accommodate you and it shouldn't be like that.

Lora Cheadle (37:17.395)
No, and that is not sustainable long term. And I think that's why sometimes people can get married and they're like, what happened to us? Well, what happened is you never used your voice and you were never fully expressed and you always gave in and you, you know, had this dream and saw potential and not the reality. And now all of a sudden push comes to shove and how did we get here?

hasani pettiford (37:38.766)
Mm, yeah.

I think it's a personality style thing because you find in every relationship there's always one that always bends to the other and there's always the strong one that gets their way. So when we're sitting in front of a couple like that, the person that's used to getting their way, it's almost like it's like breaking a shell off of them because they haven't known any other way. This is how it's always been. So it's just a path of growth that's required. People don't know that they can still grow in their marriage. They think like I'm stuck, I'm trapped, and this is how it's always gonna be. No.

There's so many paths of growth that you can get on in your marriage.

Lora Cheadle (38:13.973)
Right, right. And growing is I don't really not like to use the word painful, but it is painful. It's uncomfortable. We're moving into new ways of being and new ways of relating that we may never have done before, especially most of us didn't grow up with perfectly functional families. So yes, we are creating it for the first time. Yeah.

hasani pettiford (38:35.309)
That's right. That's I think that's

Lora Cheadle (38:37.215)
And and like that, you too can hold the light. You can show people this is what it looks like to be in a functional relationship. Look at us. Look at what we've been through and look at what we're doing now.

hasani pettiford (38:45.335)
Yeah.

Yeah. Absolutely. We we say all the time that, you know, we have a new marriage every year because we divorce ourselves from our old selves every year and we have new versions of ourselves to appreciate. There's something to be said about growing together, right? If you grow together, you don't grow apart. It's when one person's growing and learning and becoming and the other person is staying stuck and stagnant that you get into trouble. But people think that I I'm gonna be stuck with this old lump for the rest of my life. Not if you learn

that there's an importance to self-development, self-growth, individual. I'm excited when he's learning something new. I'm excited when he comes to the table with a new idea or new thoughts that I haven't heard him talk about. But that only happens through growth. You know, your your soulmate will become your cellmate if one of you refuses to grow. And

Lora Cheadle (39:37.153)
This is true.

hasani pettiford (39:38.241)
you know, as beautiful as she is, I can love her beauty, I can love her body, but the most the most attractive aspect or characteristic is her willingness to, you know, for constant growth and self development. Because I'm always getting something better. It's just like wine that gets better with age. You know, ideally we should be getting better with age.

Lora Cheadle (39:57.291)
Right, right. Now one thing that I see a lot in the people that I work with is when people have difficulty seeing the new version of their of of their partner. Because it's really easy to be like, he always, she always, he Yes, that was yesterday's version. That was a more immature version of me. That was me who didn't know better. What are your tips for getting people to truly, honestly see their partner?

as the evolving, constantly evolving person that they are.

hasani pettiford (40:29.985)
The first thing you have to do is to remove confirmation bias. Because if I have a bias about you, you're just a sloppy person, you've been sloppy for twenty years and and now I see you making a change, you're cleaning up after yourself, you're washing dishes, folding clothes.

I refuse to acknowledge it because in my mind, that's not who you really are. It's just a matter of time before you go back to the old way. And then I'm gonna keep silent. In the moment that I see anything that reflects who you used to be, that's when I point it out. So I'm looking for confirmation of the bias that I'm holding. And all of us have biases that we hold on to that we have to constantly remove. And so to that point, like there's got to be grace and space for us to become the best versions of ourselves.

But it becomes scary our spouses change when we remain stuck.

And so if we're both on that journey, it may not be at the same pace. You know, that would be ideal. Sometimes one is going faster and harder than the other. But as long as we're moving in the right direction and making a commitment to doing that, it makes change and transformation a lot easier. So removing confirmation bias is a major one. Yeah. And what I would say is, you know, just we have to learn how to stop holding our partners hostage to their past, which is really difficult, especially in infidelity scenarios, because when there's an infidelity, then there are

Lora Cheadle (41:44.0)
It is.

hasani pettiford (41:49.968)
emotional triggers that plac take place. And so yes, there's confirmation bias, but then there are a non you know, nonvoluntary response a nonvoluntary response to those triggers. And what happens is is that people literally just react and respond to things that reminded them of the affair. And so yeah, we do have to stop holding our our our partners hostage to the past and recognize what's real and then also not ignore red flags. And I think there's a fine

Lora Cheadle (42:16.033)
Yeah.

hasani pettiford (42:19.791)
Balance that we have to find between those because oftentimes when it comes to infidelity, the unfaithful partner wants so fast to get as far away from their offense as humanly possible. They want to convince the hurt partner that they are changed, fixed, and that they're never gonna do it again. And so they don't want you to hold them hostage to the confirmation bias. But that person's really going through something, and triggers it are real, and it's a journey that they have to go through to heal past those. So it is a fine balance, I think.

Lora Cheadle (42:39.735)
Mm-hmm.

Lora Cheadle (42:44.309)
Yes.

hasani pettiford (42:49.721)
And on top of that, you're right, so many former unfaithful partners try to convince their spouse it'll never happen again.

And so they're articulating this commitment, but there's no demonstration of that commitment. You have to articulate and demonstrate. That's when it becomes believable. Because you've been saying that for years, and I don't trust the words that come out of your mouth. I trust what I see you do. What do your actions demonstrate? And so this is why there needs to be systems of accountability. There needs to be a process, there needs to be checks and bounds, there needs to be a third person who's navigating you both through a process because it's hard to counsel your own relationship. You just can't do it.

Lora Cheadle (43:07.575)
Right.

hasani pettiford (43:26.511)
If I'm a doctor and I get into a car accident, I can't perform our own surgery. I've got to submit to a process or someone or something that will help us. And when you both are committed to that process, it's easier to be able to accept eventual change and transformation. And I want to say I love that question because it's not often asked. you know, what do we do to stop holding them accountable for what they did in the past? It's a good question. But you know, I mean, trust is lost in buckets and gained in drops, right? So it's a two-way street.

Lora Cheadle (43:30.281)
No.

Lora Cheadle (43:54.015)
Exactly.

hasani pettiford (43:56.384)
It's not that I can just let you go and stop holding you hostage. There has to be a process where you have trained me, retrained me, and proven to me that you're somebody that can be trusted so that I can start to let go of these things that I've been holding on to.

Lora Cheadle (44:12.279)
And I really appreciate that you also said it takes a third party. Because relationships are one of those things that culturally, historically, they're private. We don't talk to people, don't air your dirty laundry. We should just know how to do it. Really? How should we just know how to do it? By watching dysfunctional families? No, we need those third parties out there. And you're right, we can't see ourselves. I can't see my own blind spots. I mean,

I'm perfect, right? Come on, it it's it's all everybody else. It's not me. So that makes it really, really difficult to be able to do that. And you do need that third party out there. Not forever, not to constantly hold your hand, but to just say, I see you. I see you.

hasani pettiford (45:00.853)
I think a perfect analogy to reinforce that point is that when you get on a plane, say you're going from New York to LA, when that plane lifts off of the ground, ninety percent of its journey is off course.

There's constant corrections along the way. Why? Because there's a navigation system that's guiding that plane. If there were no navigation system in that plane, that plane will wind up in Timbuktu somewhere, right? And so, likewise, when it comes to your own healing journey, if you attempted to do, if you attempt to do it on your own, 90% of that journey will be off course. And even if you have the best of intentions, as they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. So you need that third person.

Lora Cheadle (45:44.118)
Yes.

hasani pettiford (45:45.268)
party who's gonna facilitate and the right one because you know oftentimes we go to people who are not qualified they may have qualifications but they're not qualified to help us with what we are going through. Yeah it's a funny Hassani one time we were we were gonna hire this counselor to work with our marriage and Hassani starts asking him questions and he's like so are you married and what were some of the things the number one question I said before we start this session I have one question for you. How's your marriage?

Lora Cheadle (45:48.619)
Yes.

hasani pettiford (46:13.439)
And so he looked at me and paused and started laughing and said, Well which one? I've been married three times. That was it. That was our last rule. You are not a rule number one for us. Yeah, we don't I don't want what you have. No. So I'm good. Yeah.

Lora Cheadle (46:26.827)
Right, right.

hasani pettiford (46:27.551)
Important important. A really big part of that, you know, is understanding who it is that you're seeking the counsel from. Because you said, you know, see me, see into me, and that's intimacy. And a lot of times, you know, a marriage has broken down so badly that there is no intimacy in the marriage. There's secrets, there's resentment, there's betrayals, there's all kinds of things, but intimacy has been gone out the window. And so being in a situation where you have a third party that you can actually be transparent with, tell the truth and nothing but the truth so that they

Lora Cheadle (46:36.684)
Yes.

hasani pettiford (46:57.455)
they can lead you down the right path is it's it's important.

Lora Cheadle (47:00.853)
Yeah. And you know, you were talking about walking that fine line before. I think finding the right person is also finding somebody who can walk that line. I want somebody who can challenge me. I want someone who can challenge my partner. And I want someone who is not going to let us be like, and just skate by. But yeah, tell tell me your mistakes, tell me what you've learned along the way, and speak honestly because you are my guide.

hasani pettiford (47:10.69)
Yes.

hasani pettiford (47:28.247)
Some people want that, and and you know those are the ones that are gonna grow. The people that are seeking that, tell me the truth, give it to me straight, let's get it out. But then there are those that, you know, once they find out that you're gonna give it to me. I mean, Hasani, I mean, look at his face. I mean, he'll give it to you straight, right? They are out the door, one session, and that's it. Because some people really are not ready to be transparent with anyone. And they come in with these secret agendas. And guess what? Like when we like we do traditional weekly, hourly sessions, we do do that, but we're most known.

Known for our private marriage intensives. Like we just ended one today. It was a four-day private marriage intensive, 12 hours a day is deep dive. But some come with the secret agenda: I'm here for you to fix my spouse. Yeah. And you don't need to say, matter of fact, they want to give me cliff notes and a guide for me to follow to save the marriage by fixing the spouse. And they don't want to be challenged. They don't want to be questioned. They don't want you to look under the hood, if you will, when it comes to them. And so the right intentions are so

Lora Cheadle (48:12.119)
Mm-hmm.

hasani pettiford (48:28.047)
Yeah.

Lora Cheadle (48:30.731)
Yeah, yeah. And first, yay on the deep dives and on the intensives, because that's where you truly allow yourself to be seen. And that's where change can happen. And I just want to say this to everybody who's out there. Let me tell you when I found out about my husband's infidelity, Asani, that's what I wanted to do. I wanted somebody to fix him. Let me tell you about his childhood. Let me tell you about all the things he's done wrong. Let just fix him.

Because I'm sitting here and I'm taking everything on and I just fix him. It takes a while, I think, for just about anybody to realize, I'm in this relationship too, and I didn't cause it. But I'm still in this relationship. And I still have to look in me, and my issues are different. And whether he fixes himself or not, I've got my back and I

I'm going to do the best that I can for me. Whole time I was praying that it was going to fix the marriage as well too, but at the end of the day, to be in integrity with who I am, I needed to fix me.

hasani pettiford (49:42.67)
Yes. And I feel like that's where all hurt partners find their liberation because if you're waiting on your offending partner to get fixed, right? And we don't even know the depth of their wounds. Cause you know, a lot of us are walking around with soul wounds we didn't even know existed. It's not everything that they're doing that's so hurtful is just a symptom of this of the soul wound that they have. We're waiting on that to get fixed. That's a long journey. But if we were to embrace our own journey.

Lora Cheadle (50:08.673)
Right.

hasani pettiford (50:11.785)
A lot of what is going on with them we could support, ironically. Like we don't even know, we have such a strong capacity to overcome hurt when somebody that we love is hurting and we know that it's coming from broken brokenness, not maliciousness. So yes, it's the path to liberation when we decide to draw a circle around our own two feet and focus on us.

Lora Cheadle (50:16.331)
Yes.

Lora Cheadle (50:34.347)
Yeah. And that's a great distinction too, brokenness versus maliciousness. Yeah. That's that's important. There are there are dark people out there. There are people who have got a psychological there's people with mental health issues who will hurt you. And there are also hurt people who hurt people.

hasani pettiford (50:40.61)
Yeah.

hasani pettiford (50:46.017)
For sure.

hasani pettiford (50:51.916)
Yeah.

Yeah, well, I found that when we dig deep, and we do dig deep, into the unfaithful partner's life, so much pain, so much trauma they've experienced, never ever dealt with it, and didn't know that they were just acting out. And so, yeah, I mean, I've met some malicious people too that literally they are psychopaths and they are deceiving and lying and doing everything that they can to manipulate and destroy this person's life. That's a thing too. But most of the time it's somebody just dealing with significant.

Lora Cheadle (51:03.054)
yeah.

Lora Cheadle (51:09.356)
Yeah.

Lora Cheadle (51:14.252)
Yes.

hasani pettiford (51:24.537)
Significant pain. And that's why you need that third party because that third party will say, Is this weakness or is this wickedness? And to help you understand which is which, because as the hurt partner, it's all wickedness to you. So you're dealing with your pain. You're like, how dare you be going through pain? You caused the pain, but there was some brokenness within you that caused you to do what you did in the first place. So that's why the that's why we take a three-prong approach. There's the affair recovery path, then there's the marital recovery path.

Lora Cheadle (51:37.569)
Right.

hasani pettiford (51:54.56)
path, but then there's the individual recovery path. And usually that takes the longest amount of work. Because you're to your point, there's things that predate you. There's things from your childhood. There's all types of soul wounds and that requires some serious work.

Lora Cheadle (52:08.467)
Mm-hmm. It does. And and you're right, recovering from infidelity is not recovering on the relationship. They're different things. So how can people learn more about you and about these intensives and the books and all of that?

hasani pettiford (52:25.207)
Well, the number one thing I would recommend is go to our website, couplesacademy.org.org, to find out more about our services. We also have a podcast that you can find. just type in couples academy on YouTube. We have, I think at this point maybe a fourteen hundred, fifteen hundred videos that deal with affair recovery. So we're out there. at Couples Academy on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, all of the platforms. Couples Academy.

Lora Cheadle (52:52.437)
Yes, yes. And I'll put all of those in the show notes. But you're right, Couples Academy is easy to remember. Yeah, yeah.

hasani pettiford (52:59.457)
Yes. And we and we look forward to working with anybody who's in need who's really committed to a process of not just individual healing, but your marital restoration.

Lora Cheadle (53:10.261)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Make it because marriage can be so good. And I say this on my show all the time. I don't ever want to come from this Pollyanna place that, like, I'm so thankful for the infidelity. But I love our marriage so much more afterwards. This, my husband always says, this is the marriage of my dreams. This is the marriage I always wanted. We just didn't know how to get here. And it's very unfortunate that this was the path, but we got it now.

hasani pettiford (53:36.301)
I think that is the perfect note.

To end on because so many people are hopeless, they feel helpless, they feel like there's no possibility of any type of change. But there's so many couples who have better relationships after the discovery of the affair than what they ever had prior to, because of the process that they committed themselves to. So if you're watching right now and you're going through pain and you're kind of vacillating back and forth, do I stay, do I go? And you are full of hopelessness and apathy and you can't see any way out. This host of this

amazing podcast is a perfect living, breathing, walking, talking example of what can be done if you do the necessary work. Absolutely.

Lora Cheadle (54:16.309)
Yeah. And so were you, you know, just with your relationships and your journey, it's such a testament to hope. Here we are. There's four human beings right here that can show you, yes, it's work. Yes, there's some uncomfortable moments, and yes, there's a lot of joy on the other side. Do we still have fights? Of course, we're human, but there's a lot of joy on the other side. So you're absolutely right. Wherever you're at, there's hope.

There's healing and there's an opportunity to make life really, really good.

hasani pettiford (54:48.863)
Amen.

Lora Cheadle (54:50.751)
So couplesacademy.org.org. I will put all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much, you two. Have an amazing week. And as usual, always remember to flaunt exactly who you are, because who you are is always more than enough.

hasani pettiford (55:10.55)
Mm.