When You’re Doing the Healing Work—but Still Don’t Feel Safe After Betrayal With Anne Blythe, M.Ed., Founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery

Lora Cheadle [00:00:01]:
You're listening to Flaunt: Find Your Sparkle and Create a Life You Love After Infidelity or Betrayal, a podcast for women who've been betrayed by their intimate partner and want to turn their devastation into an invitation to reclaim themselves and their worth. Tune in weekly so you can start making sense of it all and learn how to be okay on the inside, no matter what goes on on the outside. Download your free betrayal recovery toolkit at betrayalrecoveryguide.com. We all deserve to feel at peace and safe, both at home and in our relationships. I talk with women every day who are really struggling in their marriage. You probably have friends like that too. They find out that their husband is lying, gaslighting, or they discover that their husband is involved in harmful behavior or infidelity, and marriage counseling hasn't worked. Women in this situation need the words to describe what's happening, The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast has over 5 million downloads and has helped women all over the world define their experience.

Lora Cheadle [00:01:12]:
If you've enjoyed my show, I think you'll really benefit from it too. You can find the podcast on Apple Podcasts at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. But Betrayal Trauma Recovery isn't just a podcast. It's an online community with a live daily online group for women who need affordable, frequent support. All sessions are easily available through your computer or phone. You can see the daily support group schedule online at btr.org. That's btr.org. As women, it's so important to get the support from other women who truly understand.

Lora Cheadle [00:01:56]:
One of the cruelest parts of betrayal, I believe, is that women really believe that they are healing. They're doing the work, they're leaning in, and then things don't work out. And instead of being able to step back and objectively see what's going on, they internalize it. They think that they are failing at healing, and then they try harder, and then they try harder. And then it's just this incredibly painful cycle of, why isn't this working? What am I doing wrong?

Anne Blythe [00:02:29]:
wrong.

Lora Cheadle [00:02:31]:
They've read the books, they've done the meditation, they've learned how to regulate themselves. They're trying to be less reactive. And the thing is, even though they're doing all of that, their nervous system is still reacting. Their nervous system is still detecting danger. Today I'm going to be speaking with Ann Blyth about betrayal trauma, gaslighting, the nervous system, and why so many women fall into this pattern of thinking like they are broken and that they're doing enough when actually they're responding completely normally to very abnormal and very traumatizing circumstances. So, Anne, welcome to the show.

Anne Blythe [00:03:15]:
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Lora Cheadle [00:03:18]:
Oh, I'm so looking forward to this conversation. Let's start by saying a little bit more about who you are and what you do. And I'm gonna say, I really am a big fan of your work. So listeners, you're going to love this show.

Anne Blythe [00:03:33]:
Thank you. So I am a podcaster and I run an organization called Betrayal Trauma Recovery. You can find us at btr.org. We run a daily online group in, uh, multiple times a day. I call us sort of the ER of betrayal trauma online because you can get in immediately and you can get like real live help right away because our groups run so often. Um, personally, I went through this I went through 7 years of couple therapy, of betrayal recovery, trying to save my marriage and not really realizing what was happening and not understanding the actual situation that I was in. And so because of that, I started podcasting about it. And then that turned into an organization, the one that I just described.

Anne Blythe [00:04:27]:
So I've been around a while. You can find me online on my social media channels, but I'm so grateful for any woman, I, um, like Lora and so many of us online who are really sounding the alarm about how dangerous and how devastating betrayal is. It's a lot more than people realize.

Lora Cheadle [00:04:50]:
It is so much more than people realize. I think so many people have a very simplistic view, and that's really by no fault of their own. Social media portrays it this way. Regular media, movies, songs, we all think that we understand Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anne Blythe [00:05:10]:
Well, and I think even therapy, like going through therapy, uh, like the couple therapists that I went to— but I hear this from women all the time. So on my podcast, I generally do interviews of women's stories, and I've interviewed over 200 women over the years, and they in general have gone to couple therapists. They've gone to couples counseling. or they have gone to some type of therapy. And the consensus is that it's both of their problem, right? That they've—

Lora Cheadle [00:05:41]:
Right.

Anne Blythe [00:05:41]:
That they somehow have some kind of relationship issue that they need to resolve. And if she would have done her part, the likelihood of him cheating on her would have been greatly reduced. And I disagree with that. I don't think that that's true. We've had so many women come through betrayal trauma recovery who have done everything quote unquote right, right? And they, they were still cheated on. So then they'll find maybe, you know, trying to dig up something wrong with her that caused this to happen to her, I just think is always the wrong way to go.

Lora Cheadle [00:06:13]:
Right. And, and I think that is so profound in a way. It's so simple, but it's also so profound. Are there things that we could work on? Of course, every human could work on themselves, but it's not that we caused this. We didn't cause a partner to cheat. And when they are continuing to lie, continuing to manipulate, continuing to gaslight, we can't heal because the ground beneath us is always shifting. And that's what I really wanna get in with you. How do we know? How does a woman know if her partner is really telling the truth and they are coming together and they are creating this new beautiful union, or if their partner is just getting smarter at lying, if they're hiding things better, and if they are just manipulating more, Particularly based on the information that they are gleaning from the couple's therapist?

Anne Blythe [00:07:04]:
Yeah, that is the question, right? And that's what everyone wants to know, because especially if he's the type of liar who lies in a very kind and loving way, then like, that's exactly the problem. Like, how can I trust him again? He's saying I can trust him. He might even be acting a little differently. Like, like for example, before she finds out about his lies, He might be irritable or angry or, you know, so she suspects something's wrong. And then when she discovers it, then he seems to be doing exponentially better. He might even say things to her like, I was so riddled with shame before you found out, and now that this is off my chest and now that you know the truth, I'm feeling so much better. And so it seems like things will be better.

Lora Cheadle [00:07:52]:
Mm-hmm.

Anne Blythe [00:07:53]:
And so it really is difficult to navigate. I created a workshop that has some exercises that help women sort of process what has happened to them and actually gives them like a structure and a framework for how to determine if he's continuing to lie. A couple of those things would be— they're in my workshop, but I'll tell you about them today. One of them is focusing on like regulating your emotions so that you can actually be sort of objective about what you're observing.

Lora Cheadle [00:08:27]:
Yes.

Anne Blythe [00:08:27]:
Um, and so one of the exercises is to recognize things that you do currently that you would be doing even if you were— even if your life were perfect. So for example, if your life was perfect, you would still have to open a cupboard to get a cup out of it to get a drink.

Lora Cheadle [00:08:47]:
Right.

Anne Blythe [00:08:48]:
And so every time you open that cupboard and you touch that cup and bring it out, that is something that you would be doing even if your life were perfect, even if you'd never been betrayed, even if everything was good. So in that moment, you can kind of pretend like, okay, if I was— I would be doing this anyway. So taking those like little breaks from the pain, mini breaks when you're brushing your teeth or when you're stepping up a stair or when you're putting on your pants, To tell your body, in this moment, I'm going to feel what I would be feeling if everything were okay. And that's not to deny what's happened. That's not to— it's not to, like, pretend like everything's okay. But what it is doing, it helps you reset. And you've talked so much about that on your podcast, resetting your nervous system so that you can actually process reality because Betrayal trauma is so painful, you really do need a break. Like, it's just too much to handle.

Anne Blythe [00:09:49]:
And so giving yourself a little break throughout the day will help you be able to objectively observe what's— what he's actually doing, rather than just listening to his words, which are usually gonna sound really good.

Lora Cheadle [00:10:05]:
Right, right. And I think that's important. The words will sound good. And also, I think our bodies, our minds, our nervous systems are looking for things that will make us feel good. And if this person can reassure us, then we just get to put down the burden and be done with it.

Anne Blythe [00:10:20]:
Yeah.

Lora Cheadle [00:10:21]:
So we're wanting that. And I think that's one of the insidious pieces of it. We want our partner to make us feel good. We want to be reassured. Of course we do.

Anne Blythe [00:10:31]:
Right?

Lora Cheadle [00:10:32]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Anne Blythe [00:10:34]:
Yeah. If you didn't, you would be weird. So if, if anyone's like, well, why did you believe him? Or, you know, something like that, it's like, You would too in that situation. Like, he's been your safe person. And so you're doing the right thing. You're, you're trying to protect your peace. You're trying to protect your family. You're trying to protect your assets.

Anne Blythe [00:10:55]:
I mean, there's so many things that you have built over the years that you want to protect, and there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it's really, really smart. So I think that's the other thing that either victims themselves or people talking to them sort of tell them, well, I wouldn't have done that. I wouldn't have believed, you know, I would have just like ran for the hill. You know, they say things like that, that they haven't been in the situation, so they don't really understand what the risks are and all the complications that come along with it.

Lora Cheadle [00:11:30]:
Exactly, exactly. And the thing is too, I hear this a lot, and I'm sure you hear it too. People will say, I thought I really had a good life. I thought I had a a good marriage. I thought I was safe. And on the flip side of that, so often they have been gaslit in small ways all along.

Anne Blythe [00:11:51]:
All along.

Lora Cheadle [00:11:51]:
Yes, but such small ways that they don't actually realize it. And it's not until after the betrayal, after they start doing this work, that they kind of have this realization and they say, oh, was there some emotional abuse going on? Was there— wait, This wasn't that perfect. Oh my gosh, I thought this was normal. It's the whole frog in the pot of water that gets boiled so slowly, it doesn't know it's being boiled. So I think that's a part of it too, is we have been conditioned by this long-term relationship to think things are normal within our relationship. And it's not until we step outside of that relationship that we realize, oh, maybe that's not so good.

Anne Blythe [00:12:35]:
You also are able to reframe everything that happens. So you were viewing it with the lens that he manipulated you to look through, um, that he's a good guy, that he would never do something like that, that he's totally faithful, you know, whatever that lens is. And so, so if he's a little irritable through that lens, you're thinking, oh, he had a bad day, or Or, oh, his boss was upset with him, or he had to work late or something. And then when you find out he was staying late because he was having an affair, then it's a totally different story because you're like, oh my word, he was irritable because I asked him to come home and he was with his affair partner and it wasn't his boss, it wasn't his job, you know. So, so then once you get that new information, All of reality just like— I, I kind of see it like a, a puzzle or gears where it's like, yes, you know, the whole thing just kind of shifts. And that is like shocking. But that's— that is also, I think, why women think before they find out that it's relatively good, right? This is normal. And then after they realize that was not normal, not at all.

Lora Cheadle [00:13:51]:
Exactly. Exactly. Which also though compounds the trauma. Not only am I dealing with the revelation of this betrayal, but all of a sudden my reality in the far distance past is not real either. And that is so destabilizing and so difficult to deal with. Mm-hmm.

Anne Blythe [00:14:09]:
Yeah, it's really hard. I, I remember, uh, after I found out— well, my story, uh, my, my husband actually got arrested, which is what precipitated me really realizing what was happening. And I just binge-watched TV for a few months because I couldn't really function. I couldn't really, like, face— uh, well, I don't know if face is the right word. I, I would more say it was so painful that I needed to take a break from the pain.

Lora Cheadle [00:14:46]:
Yes.

Anne Blythe [00:14:47]:
And, you know, it's— if you've been hit by a truck, nobody would say, well, don't take pain medication, right? Because then you're numbing out. No one would say that. They'd be like, of course you should take pain medication. So I look at that time as like, that was sort of my pain medication at the time, that it was so painful that it was too painful. And that helped me to recover in that At least I could take breaks from the pain during that time.

Lora Cheadle [00:15:13]:
Yes, and I love that wisdom of taking breaks from the pain, because the thing is, it's gonna be here, and it's not like we can muscle through and figure it out. And I know that's how I felt when I went through this. I kept thinking, well, if I just keep leaning in, I can figure this out. If I just keep worrying enough, or crying enough, or stressing enough, or calling enough people, I can figure it out. And I think that the wisdom of just, you know what, take a break. You can have lunch, you can watch TV.

Anne Blythe [00:15:39]:
Yeah.

Lora Cheadle [00:15:39]:
You can, you can take a walk, like you can do anything just to give yourself the break. Because the truth of the matter is you can't go to your partner and get the kind of break that you want. You can only give it to yourself.

Anne Blythe [00:15:52]:
Mm-hmm.

Lora Cheadle [00:15:53]:
Mm-hmm.

Anne Blythe [00:15:54]:
And it might feel like he can give you a break and it, but it's really actually quite a precarious time.

Lora Cheadle [00:16:02]:
Yes.

Anne Blythe [00:16:03]:
To go to the person who betrayed you and who lied to you and, and seek, uh, relief, right, from that person. Because like we talked about earlier, you just don't know if that relief is just more manipulation and more lies or if it's actually genuine.

Lora Cheadle [00:16:24]:
Now, another thing that you talk about is really understanding the reason why. And I know that's something that so many women get kind of obsessed about. If I could just figure out why, why, why, why. Let's talk about that a little bit. How, how can women understand Why he did this, and why will that help or not help their healing?

Anne Blythe [00:16:48]:
So at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, it is my opinion, and I of course think I'm right, but other people disagree with me, that he— I, I guess I want to say from the onset that a lot of therapists will give a reason why. So they might say he's doing it because he lacks self-esteem or because he has childhood wounds or because he, I don't know, various reasons. Because he didn't feel loved as a child or because he has a sex addiction or—

Lora Cheadle [00:17:18]:
Right. He's having a midlife crisis.

Anne Blythe [00:17:20]:
Yeah, whatever. And I— it is my assertion that intimate deception is the mechanism for all domestic abuse. It's a form of control. It's a form of being able to control her perception of him, her reality, how she views her life. It's also a way to exploit somebody, frankly, right?

Lora Cheadle [00:17:46]:
Yes.

Anne Blythe [00:17:46]:
So if you're able to control the information that they're getting, then you're able to say, hey, uh, I'm a really good guy, and so because of that, you're going to help me with my dry cleaning, and you're going to have the meal ready and you're going to do childcare and I'm going to be able to come home and watch the game and then tell you I'm going golfing with my friends and you're going to take care of this household and feel like you're being taken care of and part of a partnership when really I know— saying the man—

Lora Cheadle [00:18:17]:
Right.

Anne Blythe [00:18:17]:
He knows that he has his cake and he can eat it too. Right. It's not really a partnership as much as it is a transactionship that he is just saying I love you in order to get stuff and it's really viewed that way. So from my perspective, I feel like all betrayal is a form of domestic abuse and that is how we approach it at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. So we take a look at all of the lying that has occurred and all of— and see that within the context of emotional and psychological abuse and also sexual coercion. And so when you say, why did he do it? From our perspective, from my perspective, it would be because he's abusive.

Lora Cheadle [00:19:03]:
Yeah.

Anne Blythe [00:19:03]:
And he— and that is, I think, the key that a lot of people miss.

Lora Cheadle [00:19:06]:
Yes. And, and I love that and I appreciate that. And yes, there's layers under that. Then the question might become, why is he abusive? Which, great, you can go down those rabbit holes if you want to, but it is abuse. And here's, here's my question too. I feel like so many women, especially strong, smart women, don't think they could ever be abused. And there's this cognitive dissonance going on that, well, it really wasn't abuse subtext, because how could that happen to me? I'm too smart to, to allow that.

Anne Blythe [00:19:36]:
Mm-hmm. Well, and, and in that sense, the, that exploitation piece of it, I think is really important because smart, capable, amazing, strong, like put-together, educated women are exactly the type of person that abusive man would want to exploit. I mean, she's gonna make his life absolutely incredible.

Lora Cheadle [00:19:58]:
Yes.

Anne Blythe [00:19:58]:
They're gonna be able to go on awesome vacations 'cause she's really good at planning. They're gonna live in a nice neighborhood. She has the capability of managing a household and working maybe at the same time, or maybe not working, but she might be the PTA president. She's going to be able to place him in social circles that he wouldn't otherwise, like have the type of social life that he wants. And there's so many benefits from exploiting a very capable woman that if you, if you understand domestic abuse as fundamentally control and exploitation, then at least it helps us realize, oh, of course I would be an abuse victim. Because of course he would want to exploit me because I have a lot of resources, emotional resources, social resources, physical. I mean, yes, all of it. Right.

Anne Blythe [00:20:55]:
And I think that's another thing that people don't realize is that like, well, maybe he wasn't attracted to her and so he cheated on her. But I have met the most beautiful, put-together women in the world who— that is not the issue. That was not— that was never the issue. I've also met women who, who we might think of, or society might think of, as not traditionally attractive, and their husbands don't cheat on them, right?

Lora Cheadle [00:21:22]:
Mm-hmm.

Anne Blythe [00:21:23]:
Their husbands think they are beautiful because they're wonderful people. So this issue of like, oh, I just wasn't attracted to her, is, I think, a lie in that If you genuinely love someone, they could be in their pajamas, they could be 40 pounds overweight. It doesn't matter.

Lora Cheadle [00:21:40]:
Right?

Anne Blythe [00:21:40]:
Like you would be attracted to them because you love them. It doesn't, it doesn't work the way that, that they, um, that they lie basically and say that it does.

Lora Cheadle [00:21:51]:
No. And you're absolutely right. And I really want listeners to hear that too, because I've had so many people say that to me. Well, I just let, must have let myself go. I didn't think I would.

Anne Blythe [00:22:00]:
Right.

Lora Cheadle [00:22:00]:
And it's like, oh, first of all, let's look at you. You are amazing. And you're right. Second of all, that's not what it's about. It's a convenient excuse again, because society, because culture, because movies, that's how they frame it. They frame affair as being about passionate sex and locking a gaze across a crowded room. And that's not it. That is absolutely not it.

Lora Cheadle [00:22:22]:
It's a very convenient excuse.

Anne Blythe [00:22:25]:
Right.

Lora Cheadle [00:22:25]:
Very convenient excuse.

Anne Blythe [00:22:27]:
Yeah. And the affair itself is a form of coercion because generally speaking, they're gonna lie about their wife to have the affair. Right. So they're gonna say, oh, my wife, like she, doesn't— she hates my guts, or we don't get— they're gonna lie about her. And so the affair partner is also being coerced in a way. And she might not even know he's married.

Lora Cheadle [00:22:50]:
Right.

Anne Blythe [00:22:51]:
She might think he's single. He might say that— I mean, I've actually run into a couple guys who said they were divorced, and I found out they were not. So It's, it's the lying is lying on so many levels that, um, that those excuses that men use just are not true.

Lora Cheadle [00:23:14]:
Right. Not true at all. Okay. So I love how you went, how you, how you started talking about he's also lying to the affair partner, because I know that's also another sticking, sticking point for people. You had said earlier about transactional. that relationships become transactional. They're not partnerships. And the thing is, when you can frame the affair partner relationship as being transactional, that also makes more sense.

Lora Cheadle [00:23:39]:
Because whether he's using her for an ego boost or a diversion or whatever it is, it's transactional. It is not about love.

Anne Blythe [00:23:47]:
Right. Yeah, no. Well, it's not gonna— with an abuser, it's not gonna be about love no matter what. Because it's gonna always going to be about control and exploitation. So whether or not he is lying to her to coerce her to have sex.

Lora Cheadle [00:24:05]:
Uh-huh.

Anne Blythe [00:24:07]:
And the type of sex that he has with an affair partner is, in his mind, way more exciting because it's off limits and it's— there's risk to it and all of those things.

Lora Cheadle [00:24:20]:
It's—

Anne Blythe [00:24:20]:
that doesn't necessarily mean it's not still transactional. You know, it's not still exploitative because whether it's an affair partner or prostitutes would fall under that same category, right? Where it's risky behavior, it's dangerous, it's also exploitative. So there, the, the, even though a prostitute is quote unquote being paid, that's still coercion because nobody would do that unless they were being paid to do it. And so the, the cash is the coercion in that case. So in every instance, whether it be lies, whether it be money, it's coercion. And, and, and that's the type of abuser who likes to control things through their lies or through their money. Mm-hmm.

Lora Cheadle [00:25:08]:
Let's talk a little bit more about coercion, um, exploiting somebody, control, because I think sometimes we have in our minds what that means. And it looks big. It looks like grabbing somebody's arm and twisting it behind their back. And it's, in reality, it's so much more subtle than that. So I'd like you to talk a little bit more about what does that look like on a day-to-day relationship level? How can women tell if they're being coerced or controlled?

Anne Blythe [00:25:38]:
So a lot of times when people talk about sexual coercion, they're talking, most of the time I hear it in the context of like, college campuses, for example.

Lora Cheadle [00:25:47]:
Yes.

Anne Blythe [00:25:48]:
Or, or situations like that. But I think the most common form of sexual coercion is a man lying to his wife. So a lot— Betrayal Trauma Recovery, my organization, is interfaith and interparadigm. So a lot of women come to seek services here or come into our group who are Christian. We do have atheists, we do have women from other faiths too. So I want to talk about Christians for just a second. I think the most common form of sexual coercion, at least in that demographic, is women who genuinely think that their husband is not viewing pornography.

Lora Cheadle [00:26:28]:
Yeah.

Anne Blythe [00:26:29]:
Because this man is going to church, he's reading the Bible, he's actually actively and verbally anti-porn, right? So he'll speak out against it. He'll say, oh, that's evil. He'll speak out against sex trafficking, for example. He'll be very vocal about his moral stance on the exploitation of women.

Lora Cheadle [00:26:48]:
Yes.

Anne Blythe [00:26:48]:
So in that case, she really genuinely feels like he doesn't view pornography. And so if that is one of her sexual boundaries, that she doesn't want to have sex with somebody who uses pornography, and he says that that's who he is, then if he is using it, that is a form of sexual coercion. I actually think it's probably one of the most common types. Um, another type would be if he— the very subtle threats, which would be, you know, if I don't have sex, I get depressed and then I don't want to help out around the house, right? Some really subtle form of sexual coercion that doesn't necessarily sound like a threat, It more sounds like, oh, just be sad. But really, to her, that's like, okay, then he's not gonna help me do the dishes. He's not gonna help me with the kids. He's not gonna help me with anything. And I just, I need help.

Anne Blythe [00:27:42]:
And, uh, okay, fine. To get him to help me, right?

Lora Cheadle [00:27:46]:
It's part of my duty, my wifely duties. It's part— we're in a partnership. Like, I can do this. It's okay.

Anne Blythe [00:27:53]:
When really she doesn't feel safe to do it, doesn't want to do it. And, um, porn users are not good lovers. They're really bad at it. So if she does not enjoy sex, uh, that's okay. His, his desire to want to have sex is literally equal to her desire to not have sex.

Lora Cheadle [00:28:12]:
Yeah.

Anne Blythe [00:28:13]:
They're equal. And in his case, if he's doing it for exploitative or selfish reasons and doesn't really care about her sexual experience, it's not a partnership, then her desire to not have sex is so healthy. Like, good job. If you don't want to have sex with an abuser, congratulations, you're like one of the most healthy people on the planet. Congratulations. Um, so anyone who says like, oh, it's her fault that he uses porn because she doesn't want to— I'm like, no, why would she want to have sex with this person who's lying to her and coercing her and abusing her? Like, no, she's the one who's healthy. So those forms of sexual coercion are rarely talked about, but I think they're probably the most common and the most important to talk about.

Lora Cheadle [00:28:56]:
Um, yes.

Anne Blythe [00:28:56]:
Especially for women in faith communities.

Lora Cheadle [00:28:59]:
Yes. Yes. And also comparing and contrasting that to a normal, healthy partnership where maybe one person or the other does or does not wanna have sex, but the other person is like, you know what? I'm not totally into it, but we can, we, we can try. We can do this.

Anne Blythe [00:29:14]:
Right.

Lora Cheadle [00:29:14]:
There, there are normal, healthy ways where you're not feeling coerced, where you, through your own free will, through your own agency, are agreeing to do something because, hey, you're leaving on a trip tomorrow. I'm not totally in the biggest mood for it, but I'm gonna do it because I want to, not because you are begging me, asking me, threatening me. Oh my God, now it's gonna be 6 months. I mean, there's normal, healthy ways to do it, and there are very abusive, boundary-pushing ways, right?

Anne Blythe [00:29:43]:
I think the other, uh, aspect of sexual coercion, which is kind of like the opposite, is that, um, men who are secretly using pornography— and I, I say that because they're— they really are lying to their wives about a lot of things when they're doing this, because it takes time, like literal minutes, uh, hours sometimes. Like, they, they need to go somewhere to look at their phone and, and view it and usually masturbate with it. So, um, I— When it comes to that, there's also a form of like the opposite sexual coercion, which is their marriage is completely sexless. So their husband isn't necessarily like coercing them to have sex, but he is coercing them in that he's saying something like, um, uh, I'm not attracted to you, which is why I don't want to have sex, for example. So if he's saying that, that's actually not true. The reason why he doesn't want to have sex with her is because he's already done it.

Lora Cheadle [00:30:45]:
Yeah.

Anne Blythe [00:30:45]:
2 hours before at work in the the bathroom stall, right? And so because of that, he's lying to her about why he doesn't want to have sex. And I— that is actually more common than the, um, that he doesn't want to have sex is more common than, than he's trying to have sex all the time if he's a porn user. And so a lot of women will say like, well, I don't think it's that because he doesn't seem very interested in sex.

Lora Cheadle [00:31:14]:
And that's That's not—

Anne Blythe [00:31:15]:
yeah, and that's actually a big red flag. Like, okay, something's wrong here.

Lora Cheadle [00:31:20]:
Right. And I love like that, that it can be named, that it can be talked about, because you're right. I think so many people just think, well, everything's fine, he's not very sexual, or everything's fine. They don't know what's going on. And whether it's porn, whether it's finances, whether it's another woman, there are so many different ways to manipulate and control your partner. And, and again, it's, it's that understanding of what does it mean to gaslight? What does it mean to control? And I don't think we talk about that enough, just in general. Oh, that feels manipulative.

Anne Blythe [00:31:59]:
Yeah. Or it is manipulative. I mean, um, but it's actually like, by the literal definition of abuse and coercion abuse, and coercion.

Lora Cheadle [00:32:11]:
I—

Anne Blythe [00:32:11]:
this is— I, I think that's one thing, like when I said, uh, some people disagree with me when they say, um, I don't think that's true. I'm like, well, the actual literal definitions of these things, if you go to any domestic abuse services, any local domestic abuse shelter, and you take a look at the power and control wheel, or you take a look at, um, abuse, like what is coercion, uh, or even the definition of rape, for example, it's going to give you these exact definitions. So it's, it's interesting to me that these are the definitions, but for some reason, if betrayal is in the mix, they don't apply, you know? Or if he's perceived as a, as a good guy, they don't apply. I'm like, even if he's perceived as a good guy, it still fits the literal technical definition of abuse. And that doesn't mean that, like, divorce is imminent. That's not what I'm saying. We're just— we're just—

Lora Cheadle [00:33:08]:
Right.

Anne Blythe [00:33:09]:
We're just identifying this is what is going on. The trauma that you're feeling, betrayal trauma, is caused by domestic abuse, so that you know exactly what you're dealing with and you know what you're getting help— uh, like, you know what you need to get help about, I guess. Like, you need to heal from his abuse Part of that abuse is betrayal. Um, but like, that's kind of different than I need to heal from him having an affair a little bit. I mean, it is the same thing, but like, it just feels a little bit different, I think, when people—

Lora Cheadle [00:33:46]:
It is. Yeah, it is. I, I feel like— I mean, though, you can't heal inside ongoing trauma. So you could technically process the affair And deal with some of that, compartmenting that, but you still have this ongoing trauma. So you're right. I mean, they're separate, but it's also kind of the same thing.

Anne Blythe [00:34:10]:
Yeah.

Lora Cheadle [00:34:10]:
And I think that's important to realize too. What I see a lot is so often it's really not, I don't wanna say the affair is not a big deal. It's a huge, horrific deal.

Anne Blythe [00:34:19]:
Right.

Lora Cheadle [00:34:20]:
But it's everything around that. That was just the catalyst that broke everything.

Anne Blythe [00:34:24]:
Yeah, or, or the catalyst that enabled you to see—

Lora Cheadle [00:34:29]:
Yes.

Anne Blythe [00:34:29]:
His true character, right? It enables you to see all of the different layers of the abuse when before that it— there's— well, and even after, I mean, people might say, oh, he was irritable because of the affair. They won't say, oh, he was irritable because he's abusive.

Lora Cheadle [00:34:47]:
Yes.

Anne Blythe [00:34:47]:
And because he's abusive, he He had an affair, you know? Right. Because he wasn't concerned about you or your feelings or, you know, I, I mean, one of the biggest lies is I didn't tell you cuz I didn't, cuz then I would hurt you. Right. And I'm like, by doing something absolutely guaranteed to hurt her? No, no, no, no, no, no.

Lora Cheadle [00:35:09]:
Now, something you had mentioned, uh, a lot of Christian women, and again, I'm, I'm generalizing, but I think there's also this big push that especially in Christian communities that the man is supposed to lead. And I think sometimes there's some overlap, there's some tension between what does it mean to lead and what does it mean to coerce? What does it mean to follow and what does it mean to be abused?

Anne Blythe [00:35:31]:
Right. Uh, those are very interesting questions. I tend to prefer to deconstruct that and say, is that really what Christ was saying? And kind of hit it from that angle. I'm Christian myself, and so I like to deconstruct scriptures or take scriptures and say, actually, look at these scriptures.

Lora Cheadle [00:35:55]:
Yes.

Anne Blythe [00:35:55]:
I don't think that's what he was saying. So, that's sort of where I like to approach those questions from that angle. In terms of leading, though, I think that if you want to take the traditional viewpoint of it, if they say, lead the church like Christ, like, lead your wife like Christ leads the church.

Lora Cheadle [00:36:16]:
Yeah.

Anne Blythe [00:36:16]:
That is out of a completely selfless serving place. And so when they say leading, I think what Christ would mean by that is serving, um, taking the lead on making sure that your kids are okay, taking the lead on making sure dinner is made, taking the lead on making sure your wife has enough time to pursue her, uh, talents and goals. So, um, I think the, the way that abusive men interpret that is entirely to their own benefit. And it's interesting, it's not just with like Christian things, but it can be with literally anything. It could be with secular stuff, um, therapeutic language. It does not matter where they get it. Abusers can sort of like twist anything. And yes, use it to manipulate or coerce their victims.

Lora Cheadle [00:37:12]:
Yeah. And, and I wanna talk about that next too. I, I am a huge fan of therapy. Therapy is an amazing thing, just not right after betrayal. That is, can be, there are some fabulous people who get it, but it can be so damaging. And I love telling this story when my husband, I, it was way before I knew about the affairs. He was having an affair. He was having affairs, but I didn't know that then.

Lora Cheadle [00:37:37]:
And we were in marriage counseling. And the reason we were in marriage counseling was he had a temper and he would get so stressed out and he would just explode. And it was so uncomfortable for all of us. And do you know what the therapist told us? The therapist told us it was my job to control the environment so he would not get triggered. And it was like, wait a minute, I am taking care of everything.

Anne Blythe [00:38:00]:
Right.

Lora Cheadle [00:38:01]:
And now it's my job to manage his environment.

Anne Blythe [00:38:04]:
Wait.

Lora Cheadle [00:38:06]:
And that became such a toxic place also in our relationship, because then he would come back to it and he'd be like, you didn't control this. And it was like, dude, I can't even control anything right now. And, and then it was, but the therapist told us, and it was horrible.

Anne Blythe [00:38:23]:
Yeah. Well, in that, in that way, the therapist leveled up his exploitation of you, right? So it was like, Uh, now he's also going to exploit you to make sure that everything is literally exactly how he wants under the threat of him getting mad at you. I mean, that's not a partnership. That is literally like a servant role, you know?

Lora Cheadle [00:38:45]:
Yes.

Anne Blythe [00:38:46]:
So, um, that— and I, I see that over and over again from my interviews, women saying that they went to couple therapy and basically it was a, uh, place for the therapist to help negotiate these transactions, right? Without asking, does he actually genuinely care about her? And, and that is where we need to be, like, because someone who genuinely cares about somebody isn't going to have an affair. So they're, they're doing these for exploitative reasons. Now, maybe when a man realizes this, he might be like, oh my word. I don't want to exploit women. I have been exploiting my wife. This isn't a partnership. And he might like see the light, but others of them, they're— that ingrained way of interacting with women is not going anywhere anytime soon. So, um, the couple therapy just exponentially makes things worse.

Lora Cheadle [00:39:44]:
Yes. And I love the word that you just used, the ingrained way of behaving with women, because it is. And same thing in many of the women that I've worked with. That's what we see in their partners. In my own marriage, my husband would say, we're 8 and a half years out, he's done a lot of work, but he would say like, I did what I saw.

Anne Blythe [00:40:09]:
Mm-hmm.

Lora Cheadle [00:40:10]:
And I didn't understand how manipulative that was. I thought that's what men did. And again, healing— that I really wanna talk about this too— healing takes time, and healing doesn't look like the way you think it's going to look. Whether that is your own individual healing, what is— whether that is your partner legitimately and genuinely seeing the light and doing their work, whether you stay together or where you separate, the healing journey is not usually what we think it looks like.

Anne Blythe [00:40:42]:
No. Not at all. Not at all. So, so my story is very interesting, and I, I always worry about telling it because it's very scary. And it is that there was a 7-year period of my situation where I thought he was healing, and I thought that he was in recovery, and I thought he was doing really, really well, uh, and so much that we were on the speaking circuit talking about pornography addiction recovery. And I did not know that that was also a lie. So for me, it's so scary like that. It feels so precarious, right? Because I'm like, oh, because of my own personal experience.

Lora Cheadle [00:41:26]:
Yeah.

Anne Blythe [00:41:26]:
That's not to say that people don't actually recover like they for sure do. It's just in my experience it wasn't. So I really like to focus on like in that state, making sure to know what that's going to look like and kind of just like taking a step back so that you can observe objectively. Because I was so involved in his— I'm going to say, quote unquote, addiction recovery, because he wasn't actually recovering.

Lora Cheadle [00:41:52]:
Right.

Anne Blythe [00:41:52]:
That I couldn't actually see that he wasn't doing any of the things. He was saying it all like he was speaking it. But in action, that wasn't actually occurring, which— so that is part of why I built my workshop with exercises to help women see, because the last thing I want to do is if a man genuinely is changing and he's genuinely going to become a different person through the work that he's doing, break up that family. That is like the last thing I want to do, right?

Lora Cheadle [00:42:30]:
Right.

Anne Blythe [00:42:31]:
And I think a lot of— it's really interesting to me when I talk to women because— and I heard this when I listened to your podcast, I hear it in your voice and I really, really appreciate it. It is that the way that we say things as women who help other women heal from betrayal really matters. It's very, very important because it's actually really serious and really dangerous. And the truth is, this man that you're with, he could be genuinely psycho.

Lora Cheadle [00:43:03]:
Yes.

Anne Blythe [00:43:03]:
Like a super psycho, scary, like dangerous, dangerous person. Or he could be great. Right?

Lora Cheadle [00:43:12]:
Right.

Anne Blythe [00:43:13]:
And so, like, like the vast extremes of what could come out of this are so intense and so extreme. that helping a woman navigate that is really hard. So I think the couple therapists do women a disservice in thinking, oh, this is fine, like, just keep coming to couple therapy, we'll work through that. We'll work it out. He could be really dangerous. And then on the other hand, I, uh, where, where people would say, you know, oh my word, run for the hills right this very second and don't look back, um, women could be missing out. They've already put in, you know, 30 years. into this relationship.

Anne Blythe [00:43:54]:
They have kids together and assets together. So, um, because of those extremes, that's another reason why I think the workshop works so well, because it's got specific exercises that women can do that focus on her immediate emotional and psychological safety.

Lora Cheadle [00:44:10]:
Yes.

Anne Blythe [00:44:11]:
And that is where she needs to be in that moment. But it's also where she always needs to be, because once she learns those strategies, Um, it's going to become very evident, like, yes, you know, next year, the year after, I don't know, at some point, who he really is and what's really going on. And a lot of women have taken my workshop and their marriages have, um, survived because they are able to, like, observe that he actually is, uh, decided to change and made those changes. And they're more confident knowing That the changes are like real than a woman who is just taking his word for it.

Lora Cheadle [00:44:52]:
Right. And also, and I always like to speak to this too, changes can be real and you can also still decide, and you know what, this is still not where I wanna be because it's not always just contingent that if he does the work, then I will stay. I am a fully sovereign being and I can change my mind and I can be with somebody throughout their journey. Or not, and they can heal or not, and I'm still in charge of me. And I think those nuances, I love that you mentioned this too, those nuances are so important. How do I stay true to myself?

Anne Blythe [00:45:24]:
Right.

Lora Cheadle [00:45:25]:
How do I stay who I am? And people can BS me and gaslight me, and maybe I can fall for it a little bit, but I can always land on my feet. I can always find that separation.

Anne Blythe [00:45:38]:
Yeah.

Lora Cheadle [00:45:38]:
And come back to what's true and what's not true.

Anne Blythe [00:45:41]:
Right. I have this ongoing debate with my brother, who I love, who's not an abuser. He's a really good guy. And he's always like, so what do you do exactly? And I'm like, I help women navigate and deal with an abusive husband or ex-husband. Right?

Lora Cheadle [00:45:58]:
Yes.

Anne Blythe [00:45:59]:
So they are going to be abusive if they're abusive, whether you're married to them or not.

Lora Cheadle [00:46:05]:
Yes.

Anne Blythe [00:46:05]:
Divorce is not the solution. It might be part of your boundary strategy, but he— divorce isn't going to instantly make him not abusive. So if you get divorced, he's going to still be abusive through that custody process, through all kinds of things. And so you need to have a safety strategy, an emotional and psychological safety strategy that works whether you are married or not. And that— and I, I hear you saying that on your podcast, and I so appreciate that because people think— Okay, well, wait, if you're gonna bring abuse into the conversation, then obviously you help women get divorced, right? And I'm like, no, no, I don't. Or, oh, okay, well, then you help them heal their marriage? Nope, I don't do that either. I give them emotional safety strategies so that it doesn't actually matter.

Lora Cheadle [00:46:52]:
Right.

Anne Blythe [00:46:52]:
If she's married or divorced, she can stay safe in both situations. And she might decide to get divorced or not. I mean, women have a lot of really good reasons for doing what they're going to do. And it's also a journey, right? She might really feel like divorce isn't the right thing for her right now, and then in a year or two she might think, oh wait, it is the right thing for me to do. And trusting that women know what the right thing for them is is part of what we do at BTR. And I think that's why women trust us, um, because women feel really uncomfortable, especially after they've been coerced and abused. with someone else telling them, this is what you have to do.

Lora Cheadle [00:47:31]:
Yes, absolutely. I mean, it's, it's so much deeper than people realize until they have been there. And that's why I appreciate so much of what you do. And same thing, like why I like to bring in the legal strategy, the spiritual side. There's, it's deep. You can't just make a decision in a vacuum and say, I'm gonna stay or I'm gonna go. You need to know the consequences, the fallout, and how you manage those things. And the word that you use, which I love, is strategy.

Lora Cheadle [00:48:00]:
Because it is a strategy. We can't just make a decision. If you leave an abuser who is really abusive, you can make things a lot worse. You need this entire strategy around taking care of yourself, your family, your finances, your home, your car, your job, your spiritual wellbeing. Like all of it, it is a strategy and it takes time. Yeah.

Anne Blythe [00:48:25]:
And I, I would say he can make it a lot worse. So you're never gonna make it worse. The— you're always—

Lora Cheadle [00:48:31]:
True.

Anne Blythe [00:48:32]:
Doing what you think that you should, and that's always the right— always the right thing. It's depending on the abuser. He might make it a lot worse for you. So understanding, um, so that's— sorry, I keep talking about my workshop, but it's like, I like lay it out because I'm like, it will help you understand The flow. What he's like. And then also like stay one step ahead because, um, he's the one who is going to perhaps make it a lot worse. And no matter what, you're always doing the right thing. And if you don't have some of the right information, then you doing the right thing, he is going to use that to continue to coerce you because he knows what you're going to do because he knows you're a good person, right? He can anticipate what you're going to do because he knows That you're gonna try and protect your family.

Anne Blythe [00:49:21]:
He knows that you're gonna be honest. He knows that you're gonna do the right thing for the kids. So he's gonna be able to like use all of that against you unless you can be one step ahead of him.

Lora Cheadle [00:49:31]:
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I forget who wrote this book, but the book Splitting is a book that I have recommended to a lot of people too. Yeah. And I can't remember, but it, but it, it, it is, it, it's about that. It's about understanding what somebody might do. So you can protect yourself. And again, there's the fine line between being alarmist.

Lora Cheadle [00:49:51]:
I don't want to alarm anybody, but I want to let people know if somebody is abusive, they will continue to abuse. If you are opening up in therapy, they will use the information and they will twist it and they will use it against you. Just being aware and then having some of these strategies is truly the best place to start.

Anne Blythe [00:50:11]:
Yeah. Well, and the good news is the strategies work with healthy people too. So if you use the strategies and he's not a super abuser, let's say, and he's like, just didn't know better. Let's just— for lack of a better— let's say that he'll get it. Like, yes, it's not that the strategies work no matter what. You'll be able to see with your eyeballs, oh, like, he does get it.

Lora Cheadle [00:50:36]:
Yes.

Anne Blythe [00:50:36]:
And he— it will not give him more— it won't give him like a checklist in which to manipulate you with, which is the good news. He'll, you'll, you'll, you'll see him doing things of his own volition, which will help you determine what type of man he is.

Lora Cheadle [00:50:51]:
Yeah. And I'm glad you said that because that's also something sometimes when people give their partner a checklist—

Anne Blythe [00:50:57]:
Hey, I'm still in this interview. Sorry. No, you're good. Okay. Just leave it out there. Thank you. Sorry.

Lora Cheadle [00:51:05]:
No, that's good. Sometimes when people give their partner a checklist, that's just another form of abuse. I, I did everything that you asked. Okay, that's not quite it. So I'm glad that you mentioned that. Let listeners know where again they can get in touch with you, listen to your podcast. I'm gonna be a guest on your podcast as well. I'm gonna put these episodes back to back so people can continue this conversation.

Lora Cheadle [00:51:29]:
And if you've got anything else that you would like to add, let's plop that in.

Anne Blythe [00:51:34]:
Yeah, so you can find the podcast on any podcasting app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. You can also find it on my website, btr.org. Our daily group is awesome. You can drop in, and we also have special sessions from time to time. I do a special Q&A once a month where I answer people's questions. I love our daily group sessions. People can come and drop in and like get to know each of our coaches and just get support like all the time. There's never a time where you'll be more than 24 hours away from the support that you need.

Anne Blythe [00:52:11]:
And then our coaches do individual sessions as well. I mentioned my workshop several times.

Lora Cheadle [00:52:15]:
I—

Anne Blythe [00:52:16]:
this workshop is like my labor of love because it took me literally 6 years to develop. And then I tested it and tested it and tested it with tons of women to make sure that it was covering the information that they needed to know. It is in video form. And so it's— it helps like women understand these safety strategies and the concepts that I'm teaching. Because it has, um, like illustrations. And that has— a lot of women have said that that metaphor that I use and the illustrations just really stay in their head and help them make good decisions along with the workbook that has the exercises in it. And it's very, very, very inexpensive. It's only $27.

Anne Blythe [00:52:57]:
And I, I, I can't believe that, like, I don't make any money on it, but I, I just want every single woman to take it. When you talked about you don't want to be alarmist, right? You don't want to scare people. For me, this is— my workshop is like teaching my children, like, about a fire alarm, you know?

Lora Cheadle [00:53:17]:
Yeah.

Anne Blythe [00:53:17]:
Like, if you hear the fire alarm, then go out of the house or call 911 or, you know, these are the steps that you take. And then if you— then you'll safely know if you'll be safe and you'll— then you'll be able to see, is, is the house actually burning down or not? Right. And if the house is not burning down, then great. You just go back in and it's fine. Or, or, or like if you smell gas, you know, the first thing you're going to do is leave your house, call the fire department. They're going to come in and see if there's a gas leak. And if there's not, great.

Lora Cheadle [00:53:47]:
Right.

Anne Blythe [00:53:48]:
Go back inside, but it's always better to be safe than sorry. And so my workshop is more about that. Like, it's not so much like, oh my word, this is how bad he is. It's like, it really is better to be safe than sorry. Here's all the information that you need to know so that you can be prepared. Be prepared, be one step ahead. And then if you start seeing that, you'll know what to do. And you'll also know if he's not doing it.

Anne Blythe [00:54:10]:
But, um, so many women don't have that, like, plan or structure for how to determine what's going on. But they do have those safety strategies in all other areas of their life, like with a gas leak or other things. And so it— I'd say it's like an abuser, um, like Prep course to know what to look for and what to do.

Lora Cheadle [00:54:33]:
Yes, which is what we should all know. We should have all learned that before we started dating.

Anne Blythe [00:54:38]:
Yes.

Lora Cheadle [00:54:38]:
Yes. Well, thank you so much for your wisdom. Thank you for sharing. And also thank you just for being there, for having gone through this experience, and then for raising your voice and being like, you know what, here is my story, here's the parts that really stink, Here's what I wish I would've known then. So thank you, listeners. Check out Ann. I think her stuff is amazing. I think you will get a lot of information no matter what stage of the game you are at.

Lora Cheadle [00:55:08]:
Have an amazing week. And as usual, always remember to flaunt exactly who you are because who you are is always more than enough. We all deserve to feel at peace and safe Both at home and in our relationships. I talk with women every day who are really struggling in their marriage. You probably have friends like that too. They find out that their husband is lying, gaslighting, or they discover that their husband is involved in harmful behavior or infidelity, and marriage counseling hasn't worked. Women in this situation need the words to describe what's happening. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast Has over five million downloads and has helped women all over the world define their experience.

Lora Cheadle [00:55:55]:
If you've enjoyed my show, I think you'll really benefit from it too. You can find the podcast on Apple Podcasts at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. But Betrayal Trauma Recovery isn't just a podcast; it's an online community with a live daily online group for women who need affordable, free. All sessions are easily available through your computer or phone. You can see the daily support group schedule online at btr.org. That's btr.org. As women, it's so important to get the support from other women who truly understand. Tune in next time to Flaunt: Find Your Sparkle and Create a Life You Love After Infidelity.

Lora Cheadle [00:56:46]:
or Betrayal with Lora Cheadle, every Wednesday at 7 AM and 7 PM Eastern Standard Time on syndicated Dream Vision 7 Radio Network. Uncover the truth of what's possible for you on the other side of betrayal and develop the skills and strategies necessary to embrace the future and flourish today. Download your free betrayal recovery toolkit at betrayalrecoveryguide.com.