When Divorce Feels Overwhelming: How to Navigate Boundaries, Fear & High-Conflict Splits with Karen McMahon

Lora Cheadle [00:00:01]:
You're listening to Flaunt. Find your sparkle and create a life you love after Infidelity or Betrayal, a podcast for women who've been betrayed by their intimate partner and want to turn their devastation into an invitation to reclaim themselves and their worth. Tune in weekly so you can start making sense of it all and learn how to be okay on the inside, no matter what goes on on the outside. Download your free Betrayal Recovery toolkit@betrayalrecoveryguide.com Getting a divorce. Oh my God. Getting a divorce. I want you to pause and just think about how that feels in your nervous system, how that feels in your heart. Is that something that strikes terror at the core of your being? Is that something that is like, yeah.

Lora Cheadle [00:00:57]:
Or is that something that just feels really confusing and overwhelming? Today we have got Karen McMahon as the guest on our show and she is the chief visionary and the founder of Journey Beyond Divorce. She is a brilliant divorce and relationship coach and one of her specialties is high conflict divorce. And if you're one of those people who thought, ah, divorce panic, then this is the show for you because yes, she, she went through, I think it was a three and a half year divorce and she has got a lot of expertise about not only managing divorce in your body, but in your mind and in reality. So welcome to the show, Karen.

Karen McMahon [00:01:45]:
Hi Lora. I'm so excited for this conversation.

Lora Cheadle [00:01:48]:
Oh, I am too. Could you start by just giving us a little bit of a history about your, your story and how you started doing what you are doing now?

Karen McMahon [00:02:00]:
Yeah. Thank you so much. So, hey folks, I've been doing divorce coaching for the last 15 years and the reason I've pivoted to high conflict is because that was my story as so many of us, right, Lora, who find ourselves in this world of helping others. So it was my intense pain that has been transformed, transformed into a purpose and passion. I was not a spring chicken when I got married. I was 34 years old. I thought I knew what I wanted and I was crazy about my husband. Thought I was the luckiest woman until I didn't.

Karen McMahon [00:02:41]:
And seven years in, we were already very much off the rails. And my daughter, it was actually my daughter's two year birthday where we had our one and only physical altercation begun by me. Utterly nervous system dysregulated and it was the beginning of the end. But it took a long time as probably any of your listeners who are on that mendarin fence. It's such a difficult decision and when you have children you feel like you're holding all of these other lives in the balance and it's such a big transition and there's so much uncertainty. So for me it took a couple of years to decide after her two year birthday and that one episode. And then once I did decide, it was a three and a half year high. Conflict in court CPS Police called Order of protection Attorney for the Children Custody Evaluator like the whole shebang for nothing.

Karen McMahon [00:03:44]:
We had no money. It was going to be 50, 50. And I say that because that whole crisis was largely about his emotions and mine. And yeah. And so in 2006 I was finally free and divorced. And I was free not because of the divorce, but because of the personal work that, that I did and I.

Lora Cheadle [00:04:12]:
Was divorced, which are two very different things. First of all, thank you for sharing that. Thank you for sharing that so vulnerably and just with the reality because there are a couple things that you said. First of all, it was largely because of our emotions and as a former attorney, oh my gosh, yes. Divorce is so often about each other's emotions and trying to prove and trying to vindicate and try to do all of these things except get getting divorced. And I feel like we don't talk about that enough. And I'm really glad that we're going to have that conversation today. The second thing that you said that I really love is naming how hard it is, especially when you have kids and the awareness that the decisions I make impact more than just kids.

Lora Cheadle [00:05:09]:
Me third that you lean into. We had a physical altercation because so many people have such shame around that and then they hide it and then they pretend that it didn't happen. And I don't want to say, oh, it's okay to have physical altercations, it's totally normal. But being that dysregulated is normal. And until we. It makes me want to cry because it's like until we talk about all of these things that bring up shame and pain and fear, we're going to keep creating more shame and pain and fear and then we're going to not talk about what it does to us and what it does to the other people. And then the very last thing is I loved how you mentioned your age because that comes up with so many people that are like, I'm too old to start all over, I'm too old to get a divorce. I should have known better because I'm too old.

Lora Cheadle [00:06:03]:
And age just becomes this looming thing in our brain as well.

Karen McMahon [00:06:09]:
Absolutely. On all of those fronts. I think that the more we can. For me, my desire is to just shine that light on none of us wake up in the morning deciding that we're going to make decisions that will blow our life up. We do the best we can. Then the opportunity to notice self judgment and especially with my high conflict clients. It's like you're in a critic and you're a soon to be ex and now you're in a critic again are all aligned and it's not helping you and it's dysregulating your nervous system and it's not allowing you to think clearly, make good decisions or be a good parent, a good single parent. And so there's so much that comes from the self awareness that we can develop through the really arduous and difficult journey of divorce.

Lora Cheadle [00:07:02]:
Yeah, yeah. So let's kind of start with that, that self awareness piece that playing out our emotions. Even if I can regulate myself but my partner can't. So then I lose control and it's his fault, not mine. Let's talk about that. Play of ego to ego, dysregulation to dysregulation. Let's talk about that. What can people do to get more self awareness around that and to live in a healthier state.

Karen McMahon [00:07:32]:
Yeah. I think at a certain level, especially when your marriage has gone sideways and you can see that there is a, B and C displeasing about your spouse and we're less likely to be looking at what's displeasing about us. But the first thing is we all vie for the victim position. You're the perpetrator, I'm the victim. And the caveat is I was absolutely a victim of verbal and emotional abuse on a very regular basis. I don't want the victim position. No. Having been the victim of that, just as other things I've been the victim of in my life is an invitation for me to wake up, become conscious, see my part and how I stepped into victimhood and reclaim my Victor.

Karen McMahon [00:08:29]:
Right. And reclaim. And so it's like if I can own my part, number one, I begin to grow and heal and it's less about you. Right. You did A, B and C. Maybe he or she did or didn't. But what's important, I have no control on that side of the street. I have no agency over there.

Karen McMahon [00:08:52]:
Tried that. That ship has sailed. Let's leave that be. Right?

Lora Cheadle [00:08:55]:
Yeah.

Karen McMahon [00:08:56]:
And then come back me, which is so for me, I ended up in a high conflict marriage with a very big personality who had some anger management and other issues. I married a version of my mother and father. I married my childhood wounds. My inner child got exactly what it needed not to heal. When we enter into healthy relationships, we marry our childhood wounds, but then we hold space, sacred space for each other to heal, and we integrate and we heal. But when you're married to somebody who's not ready and you're not ready, then the wounds simply become the pathway to your healing. And the divorce, in my humble opinion, can very much become the pathway to not only healing your own wounds, but to breaking the generational chains that have happened for generations behind you. And whether that's alcoholism, addiction, abuse, dysfunction, toxicity, unconsciousness, whatever those are, if you're on the brink of divorce, I have seen for 15 years and hundreds of clients that it is for you, if.

Lora Cheadle [00:10:14]:
You allow it to be, oh my gosh, 100%. I am 100% with you on all of these things. And now I'm going to push back and verbalize some of the things that listeners might be thinking. But, Karen, I was the victim. You don't understand. I did everything right. I am looking at myself. I am not the victim.

Lora Cheadle [00:10:37]:
You say I'm not pleasing. Of course I am pleasing.

Karen McMahon [00:10:42]:
And what clients will say to me is like, karen, I didn't give 100%. I gave 250%. Well, there's your first red flag. While you were giving 250%, were you getting 25% back? And then you gave 300% and did you get 20% back? What is your part? And so for me, and I think so many people like, yeah, but he or she is big personality, blaming, displeasing in whatever ways, I'm just codependent. I'm just a people pleaser. That's a good thing. I'm so kind being a people pleaser and a caregiver. And I avoid conflict.

Karen McMahon [00:11:22]:
And that's a good thing because who wants conflict? None of those things are good things. Those are all childhood wounds that may not be yours. Yours might be something else. I had one client. She grew up in a big Italian family. Oh, my God. She cussed like a sailor and totally intimidated her husband. And she was just oblivious to the impact because she grew up with this culture so often.

Karen McMahon [00:11:47]:
It's interesting how we make someone good or bad. I had a client, I worked with a couple. He was a spinal surgeon and an internal processor. She was ADHD and an external processor. The marriage practically was falling apart because they were so judgmental of the way the other person is in the world. And so there's so much for us to learn when we slow it down, when we say, okay, let me let them do their thing. Can I look in the mirror? What have I been judging? Where is my unforgiveness? Where is my fear? Where is my insecurity? What behaviors did I bring to the table that actually, even though they looked like kind and generous, the martyr and the codependent kind and generous in giving, actually weren't kind to me and weren't necessarily kind to them when we're willing to be that vulnerable and often it needs a therapist to coach someone to help to really begin to untangle that. But in there lies the gold.

Karen McMahon [00:12:54]:
In there lies the promise of a better tomorrow.

Lora Cheadle [00:12:59]:
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for stating it so succinctly and so clearly that way. Because that talk about the gold, that is the gold right there, that notice the behaviors, take the judgment away from the behaviors. And. And here's what I'm going to say around that too. That's hopefully will be helpful for listeners. My son, adult child, is looking for a job right now.

Lora Cheadle [00:13:23]:
I started sending him job posts. Hey, look at this. Hey, look at this. He was like, mom, stop. And it took me a minute again to go through that cycle of but I'm just helping you. Wait. Let's not judge my behavior. Whether it's good, bad, right, wrong, helpful, or unhelpful, that is the behavior that I brought in.

Lora Cheadle [00:13:46]:
It's not received that way. It's overstepping. It's the perspective thing. I can see why there was a mom part of me that's like, I can fix this, honey. And there is an adult, a young adult part of him that's like, oh my God, get the heck out of my business. So like, that it's not. Is not again, shaming yourself for bringing the behavior. It's noticing, whoa.

Lora Cheadle [00:14:12]:
I am leaning into fear that he can't do this on his own. I'm leaning into panic that this might not happen. There's other things at play here. And even if there aren't, it's not appreciated behavior. I love him. Don't do what's not appreciated.

Karen McMahon [00:14:31]:
And I think that what's underlying in that beautiful example of yours is the beautiful value of boundaries. Right? And so often, especially as parents of teenagers or emerging adults, we've been around the sun more often. More trips around the sun. We know so much more we want to tell. And especially going through divorce, when you start asking like that's when things I do now, after making many mistakes, is my kids come to me with a problem. They're 26 and 28 as of today's recording. And I listen and I say, well, thank you so much for sharing. How can I support you? And sometimes I'm like, I have a great idea.

Karen McMahon [00:15:14]:
And often my son is like, yeah, no, I don't want it.

Lora Cheadle [00:15:17]:
Yes.

Karen McMahon [00:15:17]:
And then you have to say, oh, my God, congratulations. I'm here if you change your mind. But, like, and those are. Those are boundaries. And when we're entering divorce, typically there are so many boundaries that have been broken and crossed on both sides. And my clientele tends to be fairly boundary oblivious. Maybe yours as well. Yeah, we don't know what we don't know.

Karen McMahon [00:15:42]:
So, like, again, let's not. Let's just keep shining a light on self judgment and shame is never valuable. So we don't want to go there. And yet the invitation is when I hit that rub and I'm uncomfortable. What are my boundaries? What is my ability to contain? I think that one of the biggest statements that I hear is, he made me. She made me feel. He made me do.

Lora Cheadle [00:16:11]:
Nope. Okay.

Karen McMahon [00:16:13]:
That's a containment boundary. You are fully responsible for how you feel, what you do, what you say. And then there's protective boundaries, which if I didn't have them up and I got hurt learning how to set boundaries. The concept of a boundary is not difficult. It's all of the childhood beliefs that anchor us to things where it's like, well, good girls don't set boundaries, and all of these different belief systems that get us stuck. But boundaries are vitally important in our marriage, with our children, across any relationship that we have.

Lora Cheadle [00:16:51]:
Okay, I'm going to again, push back as a potential listener. But we're a partnership. We're connected. Why would I need boundaries against my partner?

Karen McMahon [00:17:03]:
Right, Right. Exactly right. And it's such an interesting perspective. It's like a question, like, that raises an interesting interpretation of what a boundary is. Ding, ding, ding. And so I love the concept of a garden gate. A picket fence with a gate. A boundary is a garden gate.

Karen McMahon [00:17:24]:
It's like, I love you. The gate is open. Oh, you just blamed and shamed me for something that was actually on your side of the street. I'm just closing that gate for right now just to take care of myself. It's not a steel wall. It doesn't have a lock and a bolt on it. But I get to decide. The reason we have a picket fence around our yard is so that dogs don't come and pee on our grass, so that our garden is protected and grows.

Karen McMahon [00:17:51]:
It's the exact same thing with us. And so when you think of a boundary as a sword or a shield or a steel wall, then you just need to do a little bit more work around boundaries. Boundaries invite incredible freedom in relationships. When I know that my boundaries are solid and I trust myself, I don't have to worry about whether or not I trust anybody else, because I am fully. I have full agency over my safety and my protection and my containment. So that I'm not. So I'm not, like, splashing onto somebody else's stuff.

Lora Cheadle [00:18:34]:
I love the distinction, too, around the protective and the containment, too. That is really powerful, and I think that's very helpful. And the next step to talk about with boundaries is, yeah, but he violates them all the time. Yeah, but he does that. But, yeah, but he doesn't. And what. Let's talk about how we do manage that. Because, no, it's not a bound.

Lora Cheadle [00:18:57]:
A boundary is not us controlling other people. Other people will try to violate our boundaries. Then what?

Karen McMahon [00:19:04]:
Well, and they won't just try. They'll just plow them right down. And so how do I have a boundary that someone can't plow down? The thing is, in healthy relationships, I say, you know, laura, can we have this agreement? And you're like, yeah, Karen, no problem. That makes sense. That'll be good for us. That's in a healthy relationship. Non. Healthy relationship.

Karen McMahon [00:19:27]:
We'll say, laura, you know, can we have this agreement? And you'll be like, you know, you're so sensitive and you're so annoying and you're always, always demanding. And then I'm like, oh, but I'm asking for this, and she's plowing it down. Well, the way you uphold a boundary is you change your behavior. Lora doesn't change her behavior. I change mine. And so if she's speaking to me in a way that's displeasing to me or behaving in a way that doesn't work for me, I don't say louder and more often, laura, please don't do that. I set a boundary. Why are you breaking it? I say, well, this isn't working.

Karen McMahon [00:20:02]:
I'm going to be. I'll leave the room, I'll drive away, I'll hang up the phone, I'll stop engaging. I am going to change my behavior to uphold my boundary of safety and protection. And while it would be lovely to have. Your participation is utterly not necessary for me to uphold my boundary. And it's probably the biggest thing I hear, Lora, is I think I'm really good at boundaries. But he or she keeps plowing them down. And it's like, that's because you're missing a key piece.

Karen McMahon [00:20:34]:
The upholding is vitally important. Yes, yes.

Lora Cheadle [00:20:38]:
Thank you for that. Because it is. It's not about setting them. That's the part of it. It's the holding. Reminds me, I don't know if you were ever a Seinfeld fan, but there is an episode. Yeah, there's an episode. And I use this when I explain boundaries.

Lora Cheadle [00:20:55]:
Jerry Seinfeld makes a car reservation, and then when he goes to pick up, the car is not there. And it's this whole sketch around. It's not the making of the reservation that matters, it's the holding of the reservation that matters. And that's how it is with a boundary. You can make the reservation, but if the car is not there, the reservation doesn't matter. Unless you hold the boundary. The making of the boundary doesn't matter.

Karen McMahon [00:21:23]:
Exactly. Exactly. And we're always looking for agency and so understanding, Even if you don't know how to do it, even if what typically happens is it brings up a lot of resistance. I don't want to be a bad girl. I don't want to be selfish. I don't want to be rude. What is he or she going to think of me? The upholding of the setting and the upholding of the boundary, like the skill itself is easy peasy. It is what it brings up for us.

Karen McMahon [00:21:52]:
And that's the invitation once again, just like the divorce is the invitation to heal. We. When you step into setting boundaries and you feel like I am shaking, my bones are shaking. I am so afraid. If I could tell you my very first boundary, I was standing in the hallway. We had an English tutor, center hall English tutor, and standing in the hallway, and he is just berating me and belittling me. And the kids are in the living room. And this is my life.

Karen McMahon [00:22:19]:
I stand there and I take it and it feels terrible and awful. And I just looked at the entry, hallway table and there were my car keys and this divine download. You could grab the car keys and leave. And I was just like, what? What I could do what? And the next thought was, the children are fine. He's not going to harm the children. The children are fine. And I remember just saying, excuse me. And I walked past him and I grabbed the keys.

Karen McMahon [00:22:46]:
I didn't say anything. I'd tell him where I was going. I didn't say anything, and I just left. And I went For a drive. And I was like, oh my God. Oh my goodness. And that was the beginning of now. There may have been a price to pay when I came back and I had to learn about that and everything else, but baby steps into boundaries and upholding them is your fast track to freedom and a depth of self trust and confidence that is unshakable.

Lora Cheadle [00:23:19]:
Yeah, yeah. Great example, great example and great invitation too, that it is baby steps. It's not like you just have to go be this boundaries master. Try it. And also, thank you for saying there might be a price to pay when I get back. Because that is some of the reason why people don't uphold boundaries is they think, and now what? How do I walk back in the house? With what energy do I walk back in the house? What is this going to do? And again, that's part of the boundaries. And then there's another boundary following that.

Karen McMahon [00:23:54]:
And I think that it's very important. This may not be well received, but it's very true. So try to be open minded to it. Each of us have trained the person in our life or the people in our life to expect our behavior. And so when you set a boundary and you let them plow it over and you do nothing about it and you said it and they plow it over and you said it and they plow it over, your words and actions are not aligned. I'm not going to put up with this anymore. I'm not taking this anymore. And then you take it and you take it and you take.

Karen McMahon [00:24:28]:
It's kind of like saying, I'm leaving this marriage, I'm leaving this marriage, I'm leaving this marriage. And then you're like, why doesn't he believe me? Well, because you're still sleeping in the marital bed. You haven't changed anything. You haven't aligned your actions with your words. And so when it comes to boundaries, one of the things I did in the beginning deal with repercussions. But the more I was able to set and uphold a boundary, the more I began to train him to realize, oh, in fact, my ex said to me one day, you've changed. I want the old Karen back. And I thought, oh my God, thank you.

Karen McMahon [00:25:04]:
Yes, yes, I have changed. She's gone, she's not coming back.

Lora Cheadle [00:25:08]:
Yeah, we don't want that.

Karen McMahon [00:25:11]:
And it feels so empowering. And divorce is so. There's so much in divorce that's out of one's control. When we can keep our side of the street clean, when we can focus on boundaries, healthy communication, Self trust, self confidence, self esteem, all rise. Even in the midst of the storm.

Lora Cheadle [00:25:35]:
Yes. Yes. I'm. I'm going to take a pause here. I'm going to zoom out. And I just want to let listeners in on, like, the trajectory of this. We're in an icky place. The relationship is icky.

Lora Cheadle [00:25:49]:
We've married, our childhood wounds. Boundaries are getting overrun on both sides. We are both showing up in ways as the wounded child. We realize this is not going to work. I'm not happy. They're not happy. Can we hold space for each other's healing? I'm changing. This is the decision point.

Lora Cheadle [00:26:11]:
So often people say, I don't know whether I should stay or go. This is the decision point. If, like, in your case, the partner is not changing too. We are not successfully holding space for each other. It's getting worse. It's not getting better. I'm growing. I'm changing.

Lora Cheadle [00:26:26]:
He's not. That is an exit ramp. That is an. I don't want to say it's an easy decision, but it's a simple decision. Yes.

Karen McMahon [00:26:34]:
No.

Lora Cheadle [00:26:34]:
Is this working? No. Got to get out of here. In my case, things are not going well. Is this working? Are we learning how to hold space for each other? Wow. Yes. Is he changing? Wow. Yes. Am I changing? Wow.

Lora Cheadle [00:26:49]:
Yes. Is this evolution really freaking difficult together? Oh, my God.

Karen McMahon [00:26:54]:
Yeah. Yes.

Lora Cheadle [00:26:57]:
But it's the same growth. People so often are like, I can't grow without him. You can grow with or without him. It's whether both people are willing or not. And the journey is the same. It's not that one is easier or one that's harder. It's the same journey, and it's difficult.

Karen McMahon [00:27:14]:
It's whether you're both willing 100%. And I think that it takes one to forgive, it takes two to reconcile. And you're describing reconciliation. And reconciliation is beautiful. And it can go at a nice slow pace where you're doing your work and they're doing their work, and then it's just so obvious. And then you come back together, and it's gorgeous and it's beautiful and it's better than ever before. Oftentimes, clients come to me like they're on that, should I mend or should I end fence? And they say, I don't know. I'm unsure.

Karen McMahon [00:27:52]:
95% of the time. They're not unsure. They're just scared. Scared to death. And it's like, when I can set up. And this is what I would say to anyone listening. If you feel like you're an uncertainty for me, I was on the menda and fence for so long, I was sure that that fence was an appendage. Mine.

Karen McMahon [00:28:11]:
Yes. And yet when you put yourself in a safety bubble, if nothing bad could happen, if he or she would respond beautifully, this won't happen. But put yourself in the safety bubble, if nothing bad happens to the children, how does that change how I feel? Or if I come home and there's my spouse sitting on the front step, luggage next to them, packed, ready to leave, do I feel relief or anxiety? So there are so many different ways to figure out, is this uncertainty or is this the fear of the unknown, which makes all the sense in the world. And if it's just fear, I just had a client, she's like, I'm going to stop coaching. She was afraid, I'm going to stop coaching three times. And each time, fine, great, this will be our last session. No problem. And then we talk, oh my God, this can't be our last session because it's just fear.

Karen McMahon [00:29:14]:
So if we can get past the fear, we can get to what's for us in this process.

Lora Cheadle [00:29:19]:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And fear is huge. And like you're, it's, it's a good thing to have some skepticism, some fear, make a decision that makes sense. But it's that catastrophizing. That's where things go wrong. Can you give any insight about the difference between healthy fear? I don't have a career, I don't have whatever he is physically abusive to the children. I fear for their safety. And this catastrophic.

Lora Cheadle [00:29:53]:
Oh my God, I'll never find anybody again. And I'll die old and alone. A living unto a bridge.

Karen McMahon [00:30:00]:
Yeah, actually that's, that's probably the number one that I hear. People are always like, that said, I'm going to be alone for the rest of my life. And I'm like, how old are you? Do you have a fatal illness you didn't tell me about? Like, what makes you think this is true? I had another woman who came to me and she's like, Karen, I am going to live in a dungy, a grungy basement apartment for the rest of my life. And she had. Had this beautiful colonial home that she had to sell. And I said, and so it shall be.

Lora Cheadle [00:30:31]:
Yeah.

Karen McMahon [00:30:32]:
And so our mind, our ego wants to figure things out. And when there isn't certainty, it is going to grab at the worst case scenario squared. And you're going to have this catastrophic. I am going to be in the street. I am, I was a commission Only salesperson with two kids, barely in grade school, and I was losing all of my clients, and I was like, oh, my God, I actually may be in the street with my kids. And then the question is, well, how true is that? I could move back in with my mother. I might rather be in the street. But wait a second.

Karen McMahon [00:31:10]:
Now I have choice when we start. And it's always good to do this with humor. It is always good to bring humor into these because it is big and scary. But when we start looking at what is your greatest fear? My children are going to be destroyed. I want to say something about that. Children are not harmed by divorce nearly as much as they're harmed by conflict. And leaving is never worse if you're in an abusive relationship. Because if you're in a relationship that is truly unhealthy, what you're teaching your children is unhealthy.

Karen McMahon [00:31:47]:
Intimate love. And then you're creating that generational chain, and they're going to grow up, and you're going to be heartbroken because they're going to go through the same marital problems and the same divorce as you. And so staying for the kids is the biggest, fattest, worst lie. And so really looking at this stuff, having a therapist or a coach or a really healthy sounding board to poke at your fear. So the fear is going to look this big, it's going to look catastrophic, but at the end of the day, it's much smaller. And the last thing I want to say about fear is whatever spiritual ground you stand on when life throws you a monkey wrench, whatever your faith is, whatever your belief system is, this is the time to stand on that solid ground, to keep balancing between that fear and that faith. That this is for me, I'm going to be okay. I trust myself.

Karen McMahon [00:32:42]:
I trust the universe or the divine or God or whatever you use, and. And lean into that, because that is going to really help you through this.

Lora Cheadle [00:32:51]:
Yeah, it is. And thank you so much for calling that out about kids. Because when we look at our own stuff and we say, these are my childhood wounds, and yet we don't think staying in a bad relationship is giving our children childhood wounds. It's like there is such a disconnect there. You are part of this lineage, and what lineage are you handing on?

Karen McMahon [00:33:11]:
Yeah, and the other thing, if I could on that is if you've stayed until the kids are going to college, please don't beat yourself up. Please don't have any regret. And if you're leaving when your babies are just barely going from the crib to their first bed. Please don't judge yourself. We all do the best that we can. And whether you stayed because financially it would be better for the kids to go to college and have the extra support, or you're leaving early for whatever reason, judging yourself never does anything valuable. Judging yourself drops you down into lower emotional energy where you can't think straight, you can't make good decisions, and you've got this emotional fog around your head. And so dropping that self judgment and leaning into trusting your intuitive voice.

Karen McMahon [00:34:00]:
And your intuitive voice will get clearer as your fear voice gets quieter.

Lora Cheadle [00:34:06]:
Yes. And what I want to say on that too. Our kids watch what we do. My kids are in their 20s. I don't care if they're two or if they're 50. They watch what we do. And at any point along the journey of our life, if they see us stepping into our power, getting healthy, setting boundaries, becoming the joy filled person that teaches them the best lesson. And that lesson is it's never too late.

Lora Cheadle [00:34:32]:
That lesson is, even if a mistake happens, I know how to make the best of things and I know how to shift and I know how to course correct. Because it's not about being perfect. It's never about being perfect. We're not perfect. Our kids aren't being perfect. Being imperfect is truly one of the best gifts we can give them because they can see. Wow, look at how my mom is getting better and learning and growing and evolving and changing and making herself happier. I can do that too.

Karen McMahon [00:35:02]:
And even though none of us would wish hardship on our young children, I sat my kids down at 4 and 6 to tell them I had chosen to leave dad. I could go to tears thinking about it, as hard as it was. But what happened after that was they learned that this big huge crisis happened in their life and the sky didn't fall and the earth didn't eat them up and mommy got better and they got better and life is filled with monkey wrenches and our children need to learn these coping mechanisms. Do I wish my children didn't need to learn them as early? Absolutely. Has it served them really well to overcome over and over again different things? 1,000%. And so there's that fable where something happens and everyone's like, that's so good. And the guy goes maybe. And then something terrible happens that's so bad.

Karen McMahon [00:36:00]:
And he goes, oh, maybe. And, and that's how life is. It's like the bad thing may be the best thing that ever happened to you. The good thing may not be as Good as you think it is. And so when we can let go of all of that judgment and just put one foot in front of another and take the next best step, tune into our intuition, our integrity, trust. It's an arduous journey, undoubtedly, but it is so for us.

Lora Cheadle [00:36:33]:
Yeah, it is for us. It is for us. I want to kind of lean into the next step. You talked about high conflict divorce, and let's start by talking about truly what is high conflict? Because a divorce is conflict. And I think listeners might be thinking, well, I don't know, is this high conflict? Is this medium conflict? Is it? What does that even mean?

Karen McMahon [00:36:57]:
Yeah, yeah. And it's probably one of the biggest questions that I get. And so there is conflict in every divorce and there's disagreement and there's judgment of each other. And so that's kind of the normal tension that we would have in divorce. High conflict is when you're in a situation and there's usually one party that can't take ownership of anything that's inflexible. So my way or the highway, that's very blaming and shaming, that might remember everything in the past differently than you, that you'll go to tears. And they show zero empathy. Like all of these steps, you're worried about the children and they're more concerned about their hours than the children.

Karen McMahon [00:37:39]:
And so that's going on on the one side. And what makes it all the more high conflict is those of us married to those people. Because what we do is we're so focused on them and their displeasing behavior that we tend to be utterly dysregulated, which means that we're super reactive. So we say and do things and then because we have no boundaries, we blame them. He made me do it. I had to do it because. And so you end up with this Molotov cocktail. It's just like it's such a chaotic hot mess and it ends up costing a lot of money.

Karen McMahon [00:38:18]:
And then the lesser powered spouse may go out and hire a shark. And then what happens is now you not only have your difficult big personality spouse, but you're sandwiched between that person and your shark of an attorney. And so you're spending money, you're spinning your wheels, you're going nowhere fast. This is my high conflict clients. Three and a half years is fairly standard. I have one client I just started working with, she just crested 15 years. I have another client with a 13 and 14 year old who's over 10 years in her divorce. It's not her fault.

Karen McMahon [00:39:05]:
In the beginning it was. And now it's just. And then the other thing on top of all of that hot mess is if you can stay out of court, stay out of court. The court system is broken. There are high conflict cases that need the bully judged to move things along. But picking and choosing your battles and deciding how important is it and what's important and what's not important, because, boy, when you're in that high conflict, there's a million things you can point to in the other person. And it's like, okay, they are who they are. We're not changing them.

Karen McMahon [00:39:38]:
What are the most important three to five things that I have to get done, and let's let the rest go and let's focus on the children and their health. And so, I don't know, I just said a whole lot about high conflict. But that's right.

Lora Cheadle [00:39:50]:
No, no, that, that, that's very helpful because let's, let's talk about the bubble of divorce. Divorce is about separating this union. It's about dissolving the union. It's about dividing the assets and moving on on paper in the eyes of the law. And I know from my time practicing divorce, so often people come in and it, they, they want it to be a court of equity, a court of feeling better, a court of having the judge say, you did this to her. Oh, my gosh, you know, you're horrible. That's not what it's about. And just being able to separate the emotions from what's happening on paper and who's getting the money.

Lora Cheadle [00:40:34]:
The attorneys are getting the money. If you're spending 15,000 over $5,000, the Division of that, it doesn't make sense.

Karen McMahon [00:40:46]:
No, a hundred percent. And you don't want the attorney. You don't want the attorneys taking your, your children's college savings. And so you want to be really discerning about who you like. One of the things we do is we talk about who do you want to choose as an attorney? And before you choose the attorney, do you want to mediate? Do you want to collaborate? Do you want to litigate? And then once you know which one you want to do, what are you looking for? Like, people go out and hire attorneys, and it's like they don't even know what process the attorney works in. Why did you hire this attorney? How do they operate? What kinds of questions did you ask? And so then the big thing for me is be the CEO of your divorce. Your attorney might be the best person out there. They've got a ton of other clients and your children and your bank account are only yours and you're part of their nine to five.

Karen McMahon [00:41:43]:
So you need to be the CEO of your divorce. You need to be on top of the decisions that are being made. You need to be looking at your invoice every month and seeing what they're billing you for. You need to be able to find your voice and tell them when you're displeased that it took a week and a half for them to respond. And I would like an agreement that any email I sent that I'll get a response within 24 hours, even if the response is, hey, Karen, I'm in court most of the week. I'll get back to you by Friday. Great, no problem. Be the CEO, put your boss hat on and don't be intimidated by your attorney, especially if you're already intimidated by your soon, to be exact.

Lora Cheadle [00:42:22]:
Yeah, and I also want to talk about what you said, the disempowered partner hiring a shark of a lawyer, because I can understand why people think that's a good idea. And I was likening it to what you were talking about with boundaries. If you need a shark of an attorney to help you maintain and enforce your boundaries so you are not run over, that is the good use use of a shark attorney. A bad use of a shark attorney is I'm going to take you for all you're worth and I'm going to punish you and I'm going to create more conflict. So think about that. Because it is mostly 50, 50. It is the equitable division of assets. Is this equitable? Is this equitable? You do not want to be run over.

Lora Cheadle [00:43:11]:
You do not want to be coerced. You do not want to give away everything. But it's not about you punishing your spouse as much as you would like it to be. It's just not.

Karen McMahon [00:43:21]:
Yeah. And the other thing you said earlier, which I think is one of the misunderstandings, is that I am going to get justice in divorce court. Like court is about justice. Of course I'm going to get justice in divorce court. And I just said this to a client the other day and I said, look, he could have slept with a different woman every week for the 20 years of your marriage. The court really doesn't give a shit. That's not what it's about. They're interested in equitable distribution.

Karen McMahon [00:43:51]:
They are interested, and only not nearly as much as they should be. The courts across the country say that they're child centric. They're not child centric. They're 5050 centric. And even that we spent a ton of money fighting over custody. It ended up being 50, 50 custody. And we just lost a lot. Yes, you really have to.

Karen McMahon [00:44:14]:
It's why it's so helpful to hire a divorce coach, someone who can help you work through, like, what are my parenting plan concerns? What are my decision making concerns? Like, do I need to hire a forensic or is this something that I can. Are my kids old enough where I can just start pouring into them because they're going to have to navigate this person for the rest of their life. So rather than trying to change him or use the courts to make him do or her do, what are the other options? And so so often there are better options than spending more money and filing another court order and, and going that route.

Lora Cheadle [00:44:55]:
Yes. And I love that you just point to coaching because coaching is a relatively new industry. So when not a lot of people think about it, they think, one of my marriage falls apart, I go to a therapist. When I need a divorce, I go to an attorney. And while there is some truth to that, it's like saying, when I have a problem and I go to a surgeon, why did they recommend surgery when there were so many other options? Because you went to a surgeon. If you go to a holistic practitioner, you're going to get a lot of other options. And then if you decide on surgery, that's your choice. And I feel like that's what the coaching industry really does, is it gives us a broad perspective.

Lora Cheadle [00:45:35]:
Perspective. It lets us know, here are your options. Here are some things to try. Here's what to know about yourself. Here's what you can do to regulate your nervous system so you can feel better. Here are some things that you can do that maybe actually might impact the other person. Here is what to know about attorneys. Here's what to be careful of.

Lora Cheadle [00:45:55]:
Like you said, check your invoice. Do people think that they can do that? Push back on your attorney? People don't think they can push back on their attorney. As an attorney, I appreciate people giving me guidance. Otherwise, I'm making it up. I don't know what you want. I'm making it up. Push back. Tell me what you need to know.

Lora Cheadle [00:46:15]:
Similarly, with so many other different things, a coach gives you that framework, that broad perspective and they're the person that you can go to for all of those emotional concerns. And something that I like to talk about is because justice is internal, it is very rarely external. Justice is internal. And a coach is going to help you find that internal sense of justice 100%.

Karen McMahon [00:46:41]:
And I think that, like most, I started 15 years ago. Most matrimonial attorneys still recommend a therapist. And especially when you've been in a highly dysfunctional or toxic situation, therapy is incredibly helpful because it's past focused. It helps you connect the dots to your childhood wounds. It helps you psychologically understand what's going on and blame and shame yourself less. What's unfortunate is most therapists don't live in the world of divorce. And so the balance, A lot of my clients will do this hybrid where they do therapy twice a month and they do coaching twice a month. So the divorce coach lives in the world of divorce.

Karen McMahon [00:47:26]:
A good divorce coach doesn't tell you what to do. They ask you a lot of questions. And so if you, if you're entering divorce and you're looking for guidance, the nice thing about a divorce coach is you get a ton of information. And while your attorney gives it to you, you tend to be more anxious in your attorney's office than you are in your coaching session. And so a lot of times my client says, my attorney didn't tell me what a preliminary conference is. And I'm like, I actually highly doubt that, but let's talk about it. And then they can hear it because their nervous system is more regulated. And yes, my attorney told me to put a parenting plan together.

Karen McMahon [00:48:05]:
Your therapist is not going to be able to help you with the parenting plan. Your coach can say, okay, let's talk about all the different categories that you need to think about. And then in our next session, let's piece apart anything where you're confused and you're not sure and figure out what your priorities are and et cetera, et cetera. And so the coach, the divorce coach is a person who is coming alongside you, helping you to find your wisdom, your priorities, your values, your voice. And yet they have so much information to support you along the journey that the sense of self confidence, and I can do this. I can do hard things. I can do this. I trust myself more and more.

Karen McMahon [00:48:50]:
Just begins to snowball forward.

Lora Cheadle [00:48:53]:
Yeah, so well said. And, and I like how you said you're more regulated when you come to a coach. And one of the things I do with my clients a lot is role play. You know, pretend I am your high conflict spouse. Pretend I am your attorney. How would you say this? How could you say this better? Okay, I'm pushing back on you. So when the time comes and you're really saying it and somebody says something, you don't go. I don't know, you've practiced it.

Lora Cheadle [00:49:18]:
You're regulated. Yeah. It's truly invaluable.

Karen McMahon [00:49:23]:
And you've developed the skills. I mean, we've already talked about boundaries. There's so many really helpful communication skills that make a world of difference. There's regulating nervous system, regulation tools and skills. Like when you have this robust toolbox. One of the things I love about, you know, what I do, what you do is it's not just the divorce. Like, yes, I'm a divorce coach, but what's going to happen is you're going to pay it forward to your kids, your siblings, your friends. The ripple effect that the pebble in the pond ripple effect that coaching has is so long lasting through relationships, through generations, that it's just such a beautiful way of healing the world one person at a time and knowing that it just keeps rippling forward.

Lora Cheadle [00:50:18]:
Yeah, absolutely. So where can people learn more about you and your work? Because you've got a great company, a great setup. So I'd love for you to share some information.

Karen McMahon [00:50:29]:
Yeah, well, thanks so much. So I too have a podcast which Lora has been a guest on. She'll be publishing soon. So Journey beyond divorce podcast is nine years old. We have over 425 episodes and our website, which is journeybeyonddivorce.com on the homepage you can actually scroll down to where are you in the in the process and you can get a curated playlist of the top 10 for your category rather than digging through all 400. So journeybeyonddivorce.com and then if this conversation really resonates with you and you would love a little bit more guidance, we have a rapid Relief call@rapidreliefcall.com where you can sign up and speak to me or one of my coaches and we'll help you get the support that you need to do this.

Lora Cheadle [00:51:20]:
Well, yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that because I think so often the hardest part is taking that first step. I can't tell you how many because same thing I do, my free introductory call and my low cost first step session. One thing that I hear most often, I bet you hear this too, is I almost didn't show up. I almost signed up three or four times and I didn't. And I'm so glad I finally did. That's the scary part. It's okay.

Lora Cheadle [00:51:48]:
Reach out, Reach out. Nobody. Yeah, we all know it's scary.

Karen McMahon [00:51:54]:
It's scary. And, and I, every single person who shows up, I thank them for their courage and their vulnerability. And it will be the. It'll be that first new thing that feels so different and feels so right when you do it. So if you're struggling, reach out.

Lora Cheadle [00:52:14]:
Yeah, and I love that it's rapid relief, because that's what it is. Whenever I get off the phone, people.

Karen McMahon [00:52:18]:
Are like, thank you.

Lora Cheadle [00:52:23]:
So thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing all of your wisdom. Thank you for doing what you do for all offering your rapid relief call. Yes, I can't wait for more. I will share the links to both of our podcasts so people can just get more of this goodness together. And listeners, have an amazing week. And as usual, always remember to flaunt exactly who you are, because who you are is always more than enough. Here's the thing about infidelity.

Lora Cheadle [00:52:55]:
You don't have to do the healing alone. You shouldn't do the healing alone. Because if you're anything like me, when you're alone, when you're in it, that's when you start spiraling. That's when you start making up all of these stories in your head about how bad things are and what it meant and how you're never going to get over it and how unfair it was. And pretty soon you don't feel better, you feel worse. That's why I have created the Sanctuary of the Soul. It is a $47 a month membership where healing meets sisterhood meets soul level support. Starting September 13, you will join me and other women going through exactly what you are going through and every month in a live two hour group coaching call.

Lora Cheadle [00:53:55]:
You will also get a monthly moon ritual to help align your energy, continue the process of sacred release and intention setting. You'll also get monthly somatic processing videos, sometimes in the form of dance so you can learn a dance and shake your groove, other times in the form of small movements that you can do every day in the moment that will help calm, realign your nervous system and bring you back home to who you are. This is the kind of deep soul level connection that can only happen in a safe, sacred circle with other women who truly get it. If you've been betrayed, you know the ache in your heart, you know the questions in your mind and the exhaustion, the knots in your body. But you also know the longing. The longing for a safe place to land, to be held, to be witnessed and to rise into your own power. You can join right now for only 47amonth. You can cancel and anytime, but this is your opportunity to start building the future that you choose sacred, sovereign and free.

Lora Cheadle [00:55:23]:
Go to SparkleAllSeason.com and claim your spot in the sanctuary of the soul today because healing is powerful, but healing together is unstoppable. Tune in next time to flaunt, find your sparkle and create a life you love after Infidelity or betrayal with Lora Cheadle every Wednesday at 7am and 7pm Eastern Standard Time on syndicated DreamVision 7 radio network. Uncover the truth of what's possible for you on the other side of betrayal and develop the skills and strategies necessary to embrace the future and flourish today. Today, download your free Betrayal Recovery Guide at betrayalrecoveryguide.com.