Healing Betrayal Trauma: EMDR, IFS & the Real Reasons People Cheat

Speaker A [00:00:01]:
You're listening to Flaunt. Find your sparkle and create a life you love after Infidelity or Betrayal. A podcast for women who've been betrayed by their intimate partner and want to turn their devastation into an invitation to reclaim themselves and their worth. Tune in weekly so you can start making sense of it all and learn how to be okay on the inside no matter what goes on on the outside. Download your free betrayal Recovery toolkit@betrayalrecoveryguide.com Foreign.

Lora Cheadle [00:00:37]:
Healing from infidelity. Oh my gosh, that is such a big one. What does it really mean? And what are some of the tools that you can use to heal? And how does it work when you're healing as an individual versus healing as a couple? Today I have Todd Krieger and he is a marriage and sex therapist. He spends his time helping partners in long term relationships really learn how to create passionate, alive and nourishing interactions. And what I love about that is, isn't that what we kind of all want, especially after going through the infidelity journey? And what are those hurdles that we have to jump over over in order to get here? And what are the tools that we can use to jump over some of those hurdles? Today we are going to talk about, oh, a multitude of things, but in particular we're going to talk about emdr, because everybody talks about emdr, but we're going to take a deeper dive. And internal family systems, also known as ifs. We're going to talk about those two modalities and how they can help you heal from infidelity. So whether it is with this partner or another partner, you too can have the relationship that you want.

Lora Cheadle [00:01:59]:
So welcome to the show. Todd, I'm really happy to have this conversation.

Todd Creager [00:02:04]:
It's great to see you again and talk with you again.

Lora Cheadle [00:02:06]:
Yes, it is. It is. Okay, so let's kind of start from the beginning. Wow. Infidelity happens. It's. I know personally a lot. Oh, yeah.

Lora Cheadle [00:02:18]:
Huge shock.

Todd Creager [00:02:19]:
And you know, personally, yes, I do.

Lora Cheadle [00:02:20]:
Yeah. Huge shock to the system. How do I feel better? Everybody talks about emdr. How does that work? What does that mean? When can I get it? Do I just jump in and have a session and it's all over? Break that down for us and let's find our way through.

Todd Creager [00:02:40]:
Well, you know, actually the reason I did EMDR to begin with is that, you know, as you had mentioned, I work with people and help them rekindle passion. So what I found is when I was working with couples where one of the partners were molested as a child, and their sexuality was stifled. That. That was not an area where I was particularly successful. So I tried a few different modalities, and they didn't work all that great. I won't go into what didn't work. But then I decided to take the plunge back in 2014, 15, maybe 2015. And I said, let me do this EMDR stuff.

Todd Creager [00:03:17]:
I've been hearing about it for years. I resisted it because it is. It's a lot of training, and it is costly to some degree, relatively. And I did it. And I started working with people that were molested as children. And I remember I worked with a woman, and in four sessions, the husband came back to me after four sessions of working with her and said, I know what you guys did, but my. My wife doesn't go to bed in granny pants anymore. Now, that.

Todd Creager [00:03:47]:
That was basically saying that she wasn't needing to protect herself because she was able to move from the. The sexuality of a molested child to a sexuality of a healthy adult who is taking her sexuality back. And, you know, so that's how it started. But then I started using it for many, many things. I work with people from all kinds of problems, from car accidents to. I was told by my dad I was a failure child. And it stuck with me. And that's why I've become a workaholic to, you know, and helping them heal from those moments.

Todd Creager [00:04:21]:
But, of course, you know, the. A good majority of the people I see, individuals and couples, are dealing with infidelity. And so the whole idea of EMDR came from. And it was actually. Francine Shapiro, who was the founder of it, just found herself as she was dealing with cancer, walking through a field and thinking about the cancer, noticing her eyes were going back and forth. It was kind of spontaneous. But she explored it and she investigated, and one thing led to another, and she started to realize that somehow traumatic material, when you stimulate both sides of the brain, which you can do with eye movements, helps the brain move through the past. So you could be back in the present.

Todd Creager [00:05:05]:
Because we all have negative memories or painful memories. But if they're not traumatic, you know, if your picnic gets rained out, your brain moves through it. I mean, you feel bad, and then you don't move. But with trauma, whether it's a big trauma all at once, they call it the big T trauma or complex trauma, little T trauma, where you're getting these little pings, like my client, who was told he was a failure child. A lot that's also traumatic. The brain doesn't move through it, and it stays stuck in the amygdala part of the brain, and it doesn't move through it. And what this bilateral stimulation does is it gives the brain a chance to work through it. And it's a little more complicated than that, but basically it's helping the.

Todd Creager [00:05:51]:
The brain create. Break old connections that don't work and create new connections that do with those healthy parts of you that are already there that can conn with the traumatic memories and all that. And so when I work with infidelity, I have both people. So you have the person who was betrayed, who not only is being traumatized by the discovery of the betrayal, but all the other times they were betrayed or abandoned or made to feel unattractive or not good enough or unimportant. All those parts can get triggered too. So I found that the EMDR would help the partner process, especially some of the earlier memories. We could get to the current situation in a minute, but they start to realize that they could be in the moment and now they don't have to be triggered from all the past stuff, even though they might be still triggered from the present stuff. And then with the betrayed person, the reason the person cheated also was because of something.

Todd Creager [00:07:03]:
It's oftentimes something in the past and when we could try to understand and I haven't talked about internal family systems yet, but when we try to understand, you know, what, what went on, what were those traumatic memories and help to process them, it frees them of having to do these behaviors that are hurtful to themselves and their partner, to their families. And I found it to be really, really, really effective to help people heal. The only thing I'll add to that is I don't expect EMDR to work with the partner who was cheated on for the like. I. I won't. I don't expect the to do EMDR and then the partner who was cheated. So I trust when their partner hasn't done enough of the work, there's the EMDR doesn't do that, doesn't make you feel trusted, trustworthy, trusting when it's not time. So that's why I'm saying, you know, with that, I understand that the relationship has to feel safe before the person could process and move through the trauma.

Lora Cheadle [00:08:07]:
Yeah. And I'm really glad you went there because I think again, personally and with the people that I work with, there is such a desire to feel better. I have to fix this. I have to take care of it now. And it's really imperative to understand you don't just forget it. You don't just move into this trusting state. There's so much else going on. And whether.

Lora Cheadle [00:08:30]:
Whether your partner. Yeah. It would harm you again intentionally or inadvertently for a while. That hypervigilance does keep you safe and we want to stay safe. So.

Todd Creager [00:08:43]:
Yes. Yeah, exactly. And you might want, with your rational mind all you want to have it back to good again, whatever that means. Typically, it wasn't all that great and it can get even better. But you can't return to good feelings when there's other parts of you that know better. Like there's other parts of you that know it's not time. That person that betrayed me hasn't done enough of the work that the behavior hasn't changed all that much yet. You know, it doesn't happen in a minute.

Todd Creager [00:09:13]:
And so we have to trust our own system. And of course, my job is to help it along and to accelerate that process. But at the same time, respect the person who isn't ready to trust yet. It's a good reason for it.

Lora Cheadle [00:09:30]:
And how, how invaluable to have somebody with you to be able to mirror back sometimes, like, wow, I'm seeing this. And the way you're feeling is normal. It makes sense that you are not trusting right now. You are in the middle of this process and we're not there yet. And that's okay.

Todd Creager [00:09:49]:
Yes. And the person who cheated their agenda is they want their partner to just get over it because I'm not going to do that anymore. And oftentimes they might not even do it anymore. But that's still. We haven't got to the underlying issues. And I go, yeah, that would be. There's a part of you that of course wants her to get over it. If it's.

Todd Creager [00:10:08]:
If he, if it's a he that she. It could be the one. Right. But just for language sake, you just want her to get over it. Of course you do. But that will never work if you try to rush it along. And you need to appreciate the part of her that needs to feel protected. And she's doing it by having that wall up.

Todd Creager [00:10:27]:
And it's necessary right now. And you're going to have to just find the patience and some of the stuff that has to happen. But there was a point where the EMDR allows the betrayed partner to trust a relationship that is now safe. Caveat that one who betrayed has done the work and it's really shifted. But then there's always parts of the other person that still might want to hold on. That's where internal family systems can be really helpful.

Lora Cheadle [00:11:00]:
Yes. And before we move into the ifs, because that's. I think that's really fascinating, I also want to point out. Excuse me. And get your commentary on when you said and again, when. It can go either way. But when the man cheats, he wants his partner to get over it. And he will say, and he will mean with every fiber of his being, I made a mistake.

Lora Cheadle [00:11:26]:
I will never do that again. My husband's words were, I am eternally sorry. I will eternally regret this. And he did in that moment. And yet still it will not last unless work is done. And I want to talk about a little bit between. It's not that we don't trust them. It's not that they're not lying.

Lora Cheadle [00:11:50]:
It's that you have to have that desire to change coupled with the right kind of support to help you dig deeper and figure out, why did I even go down this path in the first place?

Todd Creager [00:12:03]:
You got it. You got it. And sometimes I got to put on my salesman hat because that person wants again, the partner just get over it. And my job is to sell them. I'm going slow. Like, really, this is not cotton candy I'm selling. But they have to understand that it's in their best interest to go deeper and to understand that you don't just cheat. It doesn't just happen out of a vacuum.

Todd Creager [00:12:35]:
This cheating happens in the context of numbers of factors and not excluding some early childhood factors sometimes. And that person is encouraged to get really curious not to just say, I'm not doing it anymore. I won't do it anymore. Yeah, of course you're scared to death you're going to lose your partner. Of course you're saying that, and you probably mean it in every fiber of your body, but that behavior has communicated something to you and to the rest of the world that is interested that something else is going on. And you got to find out what that communication is. It wasn't just the cheating. You took a person, your partner, and maybe you have kids or whether you do or don't, but people that were meaningful to you and you sabotage it for that.

Todd Creager [00:13:23]:
We can't just scratch the surface of that. That will never, ever work. Not if you want something real that will make. And so I have to sell them on it. Like, this is how it works. You have to take some time to do the work. Just like if someone's sick physically, maybe has, let's say even they. They have had some issues because of inactivity.

Todd Creager [00:13:55]:
You know, and so they start to walk. I have a client that said, I have done nothing for all these years. Now I'm walking 30 minutes twice a week. I said, that's zero. That is great. You know, but he's gonna, he's not gonna get rid of all these symptoms. It takes a while. You have to be consistent.

Todd Creager [00:14:12]:
Right. It's the same thing with emotional wounds. Same thing.

Lora Cheadle [00:14:16]:
Yeah. Yeah. It takes time and it is the cumulative impact. And it's frustrating for both partners. You know, it's really frustrating. I mean, it's been eight years for my husband and I. He sees his therapist twice a month. He does a lot of deep dives still, you know, he is a lot different.

Lora Cheadle [00:14:34]:
And yet still there is more. There is more to unpack because, yeah, he had big T and little T trauma. You don't just unring that bell. Fifteen years worth of significant trauma does not get undone in a bimonthly session in a year and a half. It just doesn't.

Todd Creager [00:14:52]:
Oh, that's true. And there are tools such as the MDR and IFS that could truly quicken it.

Lora Cheadle [00:15:00]:
Yes.

Todd Creager [00:15:02]:
My guess is about him that you started seeing changes as he got serious in much shorter time so that you could have a great. You could have this relationship. The fact that it's. I mean, we could always grow more and heal better. So I don't want the listeners here to think that you're not going to even have any kind of decent relationship unless you go years and years. It doesn't have to be that way, but it does take still some patience and some courage and having maybe someone who, like myself, who's really going to be an effective guide and facilitator to help you through that. Yes.

Lora Cheadle [00:15:43]:
And thank you for saying that because I feel like sometimes I speak too much on the other side. I want people to know it is a life shift. It's not just tiny little blip. But you're absolutely right. I mean, that first year was really horrendous. And I still saw growth in that first year. Otherwise I wouldn't have stuck through the first year.

Todd Creager [00:16:06]:
That's right. Yeah, that's right. And you know, we. Our lives get better through that, you know, and that's why I look at infidelity as a wake up call. And, you know, I know on some of the comments on YouTube sometimes even a lot lately, but for a while I was getting a lot of, you're a cheater apologist. You are just trying to defend them. I go, no, I'm not. What they did was hurtful, harmful to themselves even, you know, to the partner and to a family.

Todd Creager [00:16:38]:
But to say they're bad people. No, I don't see it that way. I've. I've immersed myself in this stuff. I've learned that's a superficial, reactionary, understandably so way of dealing with it. And usually it's people that were cheated on that will say that to me because they're coming from their own pain. Maybe they live with a partner that said, just get over it, and they didn't go any deeper. That might be true too, but they're coming from their experience.

Todd Creager [00:17:04]:
My discovery is when people do this work, they can transform and they could heal and they could become really safe people, if they're willing to do the work. Even safer than the random person out there that hasn't cheated yet. Because they're aware and they're growing.

Lora Cheadle [00:17:24]:
Yes. And that makes a world of difference. And I think on that note, it's a good segue into talking about internal family systems, how that works, the tie from family of origin to your current family, moving through this, all of those dynamics, and what does that have to do with it? And how can people learn more? And just. Let's take a deep dive into that.

Todd Creager [00:17:47]:
Yeah. Now, EMDR people, they talk about parts all the time, too. They talk about parts, work. I have found the internal family systems is a language that agreed with me. And the more I got into it, the more it just worked. And then I've spent a lot of my time recently developing ways to mend. To meld the two. Now, the thing about emdr, I'll tell you a story.

Todd Creager [00:18:14]:
Okay. So I got trained back in 2015, and after the second. After the first weekend, they said, you're ready to do it, but don't do it with people that have complex trauma.

Lora Cheadle [00:18:28]:
No.

Todd Creager [00:18:29]:
But I was enthused. I was enthusiastic. So Friday, Saturday, Sunday was the weekend. On Monday evening, my client came in, who definitely was abused by his brother almost every day of his life from ages 3 to 7. And I started doing this work with him. And he called me up on Wednesday of that week and said he was the CEO of his own company, you know, a big company. And he said, I'm useless at work, can't work, not doing anything, just kind of veg. I'm a vegetable.

Lora Cheadle [00:19:03]:
Wow.

Todd Creager [00:19:03]:
I went. I should have listened to the guy and held back. He wasn't the client I should have done this on yet. And I. So we. I undid the. You know, we undid the damage we were able to do that. You know, I just told them to basically put that stuff we did away in a little container we call it containment.

Todd Creager [00:19:22]:
And to get back and not worry about that. I actually had a chance. Not then, but much later he came back to me and I was very aware that not all his part. Now this is I. I'm talking internal family systems language. Internal family systems says that we have. We were born with a self, this potential of this healthy self. And they talk about the eight Cs.

Todd Creager [00:19:51]:
I never remember all the eight Cs. But there's a part of us that's inherently calm, courageous, connected, creative, has clarity, confidence, about as far as I could go. And we have that in us. But we also have these. We get wounded and these wounds, we can't. Like this man, the CEO couldn't live from his shame and his wounds. He wouldn't have been able to be this successful CEO. So what we do is we exile it to a part of our psyche.

Todd Creager [00:20:26]:
And that's what he did until I stirred it up without proper thought and without proper treatment. And we have these protective parts, and these protective parts are either the managers that keep it at bay. Like his manager part was the one that was out there being successful, making money. And it was keeping in a way his in feeling the parts that felt inadequate, not good enough, shameful out of his system. He was very steadfast in that. And there's also another kind of protective part called the firefighter that distracts us. So he was preventing it. But then there's.

Todd Creager [00:21:09]:
When the wound even starts to come up a little, they could be distract them. That's when people do infidelity or gambling or self harm or many other things, right? Shopping, drinking, drinking, eating too much. It's all firefighter stuff. And so it's great language. So we have the self, we have these protective parts, the managers and the firefighters. And we have the. They're protecting us from the deeper wounds of feeling not good enough, abandoned, unsafe, on and on and on. So if I just go and just try to do the emdr, like with this man, his protective parts were not on board yet.

Todd Creager [00:21:47]:
It was like, no, I'm not going to do that. It was not ready yet. So when you take IFS and you combine it with emdr, now what you're doing is you're recognizing this person has parts that have been there maybe a long time, some longer than others, but he might have, you know, he learned to hide that shameful part maybe when he was four, so he could get out there and not be made fun of by other people or be ignored by his parents, which they did emotionally. So he learned to hide. And that hiding part was a manager. I'll hide that part of me. And I never got permission from that hiding part, that protective part, to work with that wounded part. Interesting.

Todd Creager [00:22:34]:
So when we learn with internal family systems to respect all the parts, all of them, you start to welcome it. Like, of course, you don't want to work on this. Tell me, what's that about? You know, you. You have the self begin to have a relationship with the wounded part, the protective part. And at some point, you will ask the protective part. Is it okay with you? Do I have permission? Can you soften a bit? Trust me. And so we could access the part of you that you're trying to protect, and then we listen. No.

Todd Creager [00:23:09]:
No, I'm not. Well, then there's more work to do with the protective part. You don't start working with the wound until you get unanimous. Yes. And you do. You do get that usually, and quickly, usually. But when you do, now everyone's on board. Now you can do the processing.

Todd Creager [00:23:25]:
So that. Now, working with infidelity. Yeah. We have, let's say the betrayed person. And I want to. I want to help them heal. Let's say the person who betrayed has done a lot of the work. But again, I'm just using the male and the female just for language sake.

Todd Creager [00:23:45]:
But I have women that cheat, too. But in this case, let's say it's the male and the female. It's like, I'm not ready to have sex with him. And let's say they've been working on it for quite a while. And he's done his work, he's been to therapy, he's got it. He's showing some good signs. It's like we, you know, we have to address the part of her that's trying to protect her and get to know it, welcome it, learn it, and see. At some point, do you have.

Todd Creager [00:24:12]:
Can. Can you back down a bit and take some chances and try to help that part be on board? And then we could process the worst fears that they have. So that's a little bit of why that works so well together. And ultimately with emdr, helping the person get in the present and recognize that. That this is not a year ago, this is now.

Lora Cheadle [00:24:38]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And one of the things I also think is so fascinating with, like, ifs and the different parts, there's me and all. There's on all of my parts. And Then there's my husband and all of his parts. And sometimes we're coming together and who am I talking to? Am I talking to a protector?

Todd Creager [00:24:58]:
Who am I.

Lora Cheadle [00:24:58]:
Who. Who am I approaching him as? And it. It gets complex. But just having, sometimes the languaging, having that understanding, then it's not that. Like in the example you gave, it's not necessarily that I don't want to have sex with you. It's. There is a part of me that is not wanting to do that. And then your partner understands.

Lora Cheadle [00:25:21]:
Yes, there is a part of you that is willing, and there is a part of you that says no. And I think it allows both people to soften because it's so easy to just be triggered. Of course you're triggered. Everybody's triggered. When this gets discovered, everybody's protective parts come out.

Todd Creager [00:25:42]:
It's very fascinating. I have a couple I've worked with, and this was not about infidelity, but they haven't had a sexual relationship since very early in their relationship. They're a young attractive couple, but not happening. And they want to have kids. And. And he says something real interesting as we're ending a session, and he said, I think I'd be more attracted to my wife if she was more rejecting and pushing me away. And I thought that was very fascinating. So the next week we looked at.

Todd Creager [00:26:12]:
So let's talk about the part of you, you know, and it got to the point where there was a part of him that felt like he always had to prove himself and that didn't feel good enough and that he got activated, the sexual libido got activated to prove himself but once. So there was that part. So until we deal with that part, having a lovely, kind, caring wife was a sec. Created a sexual break for him. It's fascinating. So doing a little internal family systems were really helpful there, you know, and so. Yeah.

Lora Cheadle [00:26:48]:
Yeah. And then it depersonalizes it enough. It's not. I want to hold this over my husband's head forever. I am never going to let it go. It's. You know what? There is a part of me that wants to keep him on the hook. And then it's easier to get curious because I'm not at fault.

Lora Cheadle [00:27:05]:
I'm not broken. There's just a part of me that thinks this is true.

Todd Creager [00:27:10]:
Yes, absolutely. It's, it's, it's just. It's very liberating. It's very kind. It's very kind. You know, I just had a woman earlier today. She's, you know, the ifs again her husband didn't cheat, but he had severe issues with alcohol. And she says, understanding my parts as well as his parts, I kind of soften.

Todd Creager [00:27:35]:
I don't get on his case. I don't get so mean. And he said, yes. And you know what? Because of that, I'm feeling safer and safer with her. And I'm not saying that I'm taking full responsibility for my drinking, but it makes it easier not to drink, that I'm in a relationship now where I feel safe. So it's just kind of an upward spiral.

Lora Cheadle [00:28:01]:
And I had mentioned earlier, you know, even family of origin and current family, I, in a broad sweeping statement, will make this broad sweeping statement, realizing it doesn't apply to everybody. However, I fully believe that the vast majority of people who cheat do so because there is some traumatic thing in their past. There's something that is not addressed. There is some problem. There is, like you said, it just doesn't happen in a vacuum. And when that traumatic thing happened, oftentimes as a result of childhood, and I'm with you 100%. Okay, good, good, good. And then we have things like culture and society and beliefs and what a woman should be and what a man should be.

Lora Cheadle [00:28:44]:
And it just creates so many layers and part of this work. And why, like my husband, he, like, he says, I'm going to do therapy forever because it helps you understand all the different layers. And with his traumatic background, now he's understanding his mom's activated, traumatized parts. She is a survivor of sexual abuse. Of course she parented him in this different way. So again, it's not just saying yay, we love, we love people who cheat and harm, but we say, I have compassion and I have, have understanding and it makes sense to me and it's not personal. But then we're all wiser and we can stay safer.

Todd Creager [00:29:30]:
That's right. It's. It's beautiful. It's beautiful.

Lora Cheadle [00:29:35]:
And like, that's a big soliloquy there. Sorry.

Todd Creager [00:29:38]:
No, it's great. I. You couldn't have said it better.

Lora Cheadle [00:29:43]:
Yeah.

Todd Creager [00:29:44]:
And, you know, when it comes down to it, I think that most of the problems we have, not only in our personal lives, but I'll even see in the macro world when it comes to wars and politics and everything have to do with people not looking inside of themselves and recognizing some wounded parts and protective parts. I think it's all about. I know it's all about that. It's all of this. This is like the. This is it, this is it. And so if the People watching could really be curious, which is one of the eight Cs of the self about when you've done something harmful to yourself or somebody else or if somebody else has done it. If you could look from the perspective of what is that doing for you? Now, I'm not saying that people that commit crimes shouldn't go to jail.

Todd Creager [00:30:42]:
I'm not saying that at all. I think we got to protect society. I got to think we got to do all those things. But it still doesn't take away from the truth, is that the reason people do whatever they do is because of some part of them that is trying to protect them from something on some level. It's just all true.

Lora Cheadle [00:31:01]:
And it doesn't mean that we have to stay in the relationship. I think relationships can be extraordinarily better after going through an infidelity journey because it forces both people, if they are willing to actually do a deeper level of work and to figure out how to relate better. That said, if your partner is not willing and if you are not willing, you don't have to be willing, you can get out, you can do your own stuff later.

Todd Creager [00:31:33]:
We're all so we have to listen to our soul, we have to listen to our heart. And just because we're saying that this exists doesn't mean a person who is betrayed has to stay in the relationship. We're not saying that at all. And look, and a person who did the betrayal, if they're not willing to do the work, I just say to the person who is betrayed, just know that there's no reason to trust that it won't happen again or something like it or you know, and yeah, look, one of the things that I see too, you know, which is really good with people that have been betrayed is they wake up to the parts of them that they ignored.

Lora Cheadle [00:32:13]:
Yeah.

Todd Creager [00:32:14]:
The part of me that needs, the part of me that was overly adaptive, you know, the part of me that accepted you not being present for 22 years of our marriage much. But then what got me going is when you cheated. But then I have to realize it wasn't just about the cheating, it was about you not showing up.

Lora Cheadle [00:32:34]:
Yeah.

Todd Creager [00:32:36]:
And so yeah, I mean there's. When a person who's betrayed realizes that I'm thinking of a couple I'm working with now, or at least I work with them mostly separately. And it was very different. Therapy for him is to help him deal with his self absorbing traits and to get to be kinder for her is to help her recognize the traits that she over the parts of her that she overlooked. The parts that had healthy needs and want and needed to be taken care of and needed attending to. Well, you know, got really clear for her. It was time to move on. Yeah.

Lora Cheadle [00:33:14]:
Yeah. And you don't have to decide in an instant. You don't have to decide the moment you discover. You don't have to decide the first six months or a year. Even if you're into things six years down the road and you realize we are on different paths. I do not want this relationship. That's okay. It's all okay.

Todd Creager [00:33:35]:
It's all okay. Absolutely true. Yeah, it is.

Lora Cheadle [00:33:40]:
Yeah. Something just what you were talking about, like the overlooked parts, because that was my wake up call. I felt, I mean, clearly I'm perfect, you know, Aren't we all? And clearly, since he was the cheater, it was his problem and it took a while for me to wrap my head around, what do you mean? I need to look at me too. I didn't cheat. What do you mean? I didn't do this. And that was a real shift breakdown moment when, okay, maybe he has, quote, more problems because he did the cheating, but it's an invitation for me too. Wow. That was an interesting place to get to.

Todd Creager [00:34:23]:
Yes. Yes.

Lora Cheadle [00:34:25]:
Is that hard? For most of the people you see,

Todd Creager [00:34:28]:
it is oftentimes because the mentality is, I'm the victim, he's the one that, or she's the one that did this to me. I'll shift it up a little bit and just fix her and help us see why she cheated and everything's okay. And it isn't that way because again, the person who betrayed is 100% responsible for their choices. But you're right, we're not perfect. We all have parts that have been neglected. All of us do. And this is where life never ends. It's good.

Todd Creager [00:35:12]:
It's great. Life is generous. It helps us wake up to these parts of us that we didn't love enough before. We didn't know to love enough. Love, to me, is the same as paying attention to it. So, yeah, like the woman I just mentioned, she started to realize how little he gave her and how she just went with it. So she would be the one that takes the kids on vacations. He wouldn't even come.

Lora Cheadle [00:35:39]:
Wow.

Todd Creager [00:35:39]:
They would even go on vacations together. And I said, and. And you. You did. You thought that was okay. She goes, it's just what I had to do. But then, and this is something I want to say because this will resonate with some of the People watching. She.

Todd Creager [00:35:55]:
She started to say, so what's wrong with me that I stayed with him? What's wrong with me that I stayed with him all those years and I knew better, and there were red flags, and I paid. And what kind of person doesn't pay attention to the red flags? And I said, what's the part of you that wanted to overlook those things?

Lora Cheadle [00:36:16]:
Yes.

Todd Creager [00:36:17]:
And she said, well, I just wanted an intact family. I said, there's nothing dishonorable about that. You wanted an intact family. You know, you couldn't afford to look at that stuff. You weren't ready to look at that stuff. You weren't even consciously not looking at that stuff. You. There's a party that wanted this family to work as it was, so you overlooked it.

Todd Creager [00:36:41]:
And so now there's a party that's beating yourself up for it. But that part of you, it's not really very wise to the heart and guts of life. It's just now looking at things now versus then. And so, you know, can you find, you know, this. How do you feel? And this is an IFS question. You go, how do you feel towards the part of you that stayed in the marriage? Well, really, I hate that part. I go, well, can you soften a little bit to make some space? And then ultimately they get to the point where they understand that that part was trying to protect them from a broken family. They didn't want that.

Todd Creager [00:37:30]:
So even that there's a compassionate, curious stance. And it, you know, we start to recognize that even though we have these critical parts, that we really don't let those parts hijack us anymore because there's reasons why we do what we do. So, yeah, that's all part of the work.

Lora Cheadle [00:37:55]:
I appreciate that explanation so much. Because we do want good things. Because I want to be loved, because I want an intact family, because I want to raise my children with money for soccer lessons and ballet lessons. There's 10,000 reasons why. And it's okay to say I'm not ready to deal with it. I feel like, yeah, in so many of. In my case, again, and in the case of so many of the people that I work with, the moment they find out is actually a really good moment. If they would have found out earlier, they wouldn't have been ready to deal with it.

Todd Creager [00:38:33]:
Yep. Timing. Trusting the timing. I know it doesn't feel that way sometimes, but the more we get into this work, the more we start to go those of timing. It's not like my life was a farce. It's much more complex than that. And so, yeah, we. We take solace in knowing that, you know, there's reasons we.

Todd Creager [00:38:55]:
We did what we did. And, and look, I. I've even people, I say, well, what's the party? They wanted to stay. And the person will say, they'll listen, they'll ask, and the park goes. It used to make me feel really good, and I didn't want to give up hope that I feel that good again. I've never felt that good like I used to feel with my husband. And so when that happened, I couldn't. I just couldn't give it up.

Todd Creager [00:39:21]:
That makes sense. You wanted to feel good like you used to. So there's all kinds of understanding that we start to have as we go through this, and then we get freed up to really make decisions based on what's really true now.

Lora Cheadle [00:39:35]:
And even like that, making decisions, one thing I hear over and over again is, what if I leave him and what if I never find anybody else again? What if this was the best it could ever be? And again, being able to talk to that part. What part of you is afraid? What part of you is afraid that you won't find this and how to talk to that part again? Not by squishing it and saying you never come up again, but getting curious.

Todd Creager [00:40:08]:
And the other thing I do in those situations at some point is we do the. This, like you said, it's wonderful just tuning into that part. And then we do an emdr, something called a future template, where you imagine what's the worst, worst possible scenario. And simply it's like, well, I'm all alone. And I thought maybe I shouldn't have even divorced my partner. At least I had somebody, even though he cheated on me seven years or whatever the case may be. And you help them see that. And we process it.

Todd Creager [00:40:35]:
And suddenly after a while, they're like, no, I'm good. I'm good about the future. It's not going to happen that way. They're able to recognize and process it from the inside out.

Lora Cheadle [00:40:50]:
The other thing I really wanted to talk about is you and I have both used the term process a lot, and a lot of people use the term process. I need to process this. I need to process it. What do you think processing really means? Because I think sometimes that's a vague notion for people. I'm doing the work, I'm processing, and then they think I don't even know what that is.

Todd Creager [00:41:13]:
That's a great question, processing, you know, And I would say EMDR uses the word processing. And ifs uses the word unburdening. But what they have in common is that you get to experience the part. You get to experience it, and that part gets to be done. Get done. It's like, because they. I'll give you an example of just a client I had right before I'm on this with you. This is a man who cheated.

Todd Creager [00:41:50]:
He came in because he cheated, and he cheated. This is not the first person he cheated on, but he really wanted this. He wants this relationship to work. And we've been doing some work. It's been great. He was. He was. He had a mom who couldn't handle him and a dad who didn't want him.

Todd Creager [00:42:12]:
And he was in three foster care situations, you know, and all this kind of stuff. So we felt very unwanted, very unloved. So we talked about, like, how we just like getting in. So he. He said, I can get really, really angry at times. And I go, well, what is that angry part? Trying to do little. Ifs language. I don't know.

Todd Creager [00:42:36]:
Just wanted. It wants to make sure I'm perfect. And I said, well, what. What. What is. What is that? What do you think that's about? Where does it come from? And go inside and notice where that might come from. Whatever comes up. She goes, he goes, well, what came up for me? I was young, and I had two cousins, and my mother's mother, my grandmother, who was not a nice person, would always, you know, my cousins came from family.

Todd Creager [00:43:02]:
They were all too healthy. And my family was really like the dark sheep, the black sheep of the family. And so she would always tell me, I'm not as good as them. She would always show it to me. And. And I go, okay. And we focus that with emdr, that memory. So I said, process it.

Todd Creager [00:43:21]:
What comes. What came up for you? He said, anger. Now that when you say process, that angry little boy, first of all never experienced the anger, didn't it. It was too busy trying to survive. But now he noticed the anger. Believe me, that boy felt anger before, but it was exiled to use ifs language. But so he's. He feels the anger.

Todd Creager [00:43:42]:
I said, okay, notice what the anger wants to do. Whatever it wants to do. There's no. There's, you know, you could do it outwardly, you could do it inwardly and just. And I did the bilateral stimulations with doing it. And I said, what was that like? He goes, I was screaming at my grandmother. And I went, you scream, okay? And then we had him do it again. We followed the EMDR protocol.

Todd Creager [00:44:04]:
And then suddenly he says. He said, I'm feeling. Not feeling as angry. I said, well, that's good. Notice that. And we did it again. And then I said, what came up for you? He's not doing this is all happening in emdr. And he says, I went back and I took that little boy and I got him out of that situation and I went, notice that? And anyway, he felt calm.

Todd Creager [00:44:27]:
We had a complete resolution of that whole memory. Now. I know that as a man who didn't feel enough, okay, he had an affair when his wife, his girlfriend at the time, got into grad school and couldn't see him enough, triggered his I'm not enough. And he had an affair, actually went back to his previous wife, who always accepted him and no matter what. So this is an example of processing that part of him that was angry that felt not good enough. He experienced that little boy that had to be exiled and was done with it. He's done with that memory. He didn't feel angry.

Todd Creager [00:45:17]:
As a matter of fact, he felt compassion towards his mom, who had to live with his mother's mother because he had a lot of anger towards his mother. But it all resolved in one shot. It was done. That's what it is. You're just done. You have this. You just unravel. That's what processing is.

Todd Creager [00:45:35]:
Long answer to that. Great question, but I wanted to share that. Just came up with this one client.

Lora Cheadle [00:45:41]:
Yeah. Because it is the example that helps you understand.

Todd Creager [00:45:44]:
Yes.

Lora Cheadle [00:45:45]:
What I want to point out, too, the difference with the bilateral stimulation, there's emdr, there's some different ways to help reprocess memories, but it's a reprocess processing of the memory. We have those bad memories, and then, oh, it gets in our body and we feel nauseous and our shoulders clench and we get a headache. And it's reprocessing it in a healthy way. Very dumbed down, very simplistic. It's processing it in a way that'll help you make sense of it where you stand now. But using the bilateral stimulation, to my understanding, and you can totally correct me here, is it literally moves it to a different place. Place in the brain where it can be processed in a more healthy way so it won't hijack you.

Todd Creager [00:46:28]:
Yeah, that's exactly right. The bilateral stimulation allows you to process traumatic memory like it's not traumatic memory. Right. Because it's. It's just. It's. It seems magical, but it really does work. And I've seen these kinds of changes.

Todd Creager [00:46:45]:
And, you know, he's I could see the changes in him, you know, just been remarkable. So this was just another. Another level down, dealing with this perfectionism. And I'm expecting him to. When I see him, I'll see him in a few weeks. I'm going on vacation. But I expect him to say I was even kinder to my subordinate, that he works. He's.

Todd Creager [00:47:09]:
He's a leader. And, you know, I think he'll be easier on them because he doesn't have to be perfect. They don't have to be perfect. So these are the things that these kinds of early memories can give birth to, these kinds of patterns to protect us from. You know, he doesn't want to be seen as inferior, right? So you got to be perfect. Oh, well, now that's done, that memory's done, are there more memories? We'll see. But that memory is done, and it's an unraveling. So that's it.

Lora Cheadle [00:47:42]:
So here's another question that I think people might be wondering, okay, if there's one memory, I can go back and reprocess it, but what if I don't really know what one memory is? What if it's just my whole history, my whole pattern? Is EMDR going to work for me?

Todd Creager [00:47:59]:
It will work, because you don't have to have those kinds of memories. A lot of times people, whatever their childhood was, like, it's just one total foggy, icky thing. And. And so we first of all work with the parts to the. Well, there's a part of me that felt this, and sometimes that's an entryway. It's a portal into some memories sometimes. But also there's different aspects of memories. There's sensation, emotion, cognition, and also the visual, auditory.

Todd Creager [00:48:32]:
Somebody might only have a feeling. We work with what you got. You know, that's all you got. Maybe you have a cognition of belief. I'm not good enough. That's all you got. We work with that. We see where it goes and we open to what's coming up.

Todd Creager [00:48:45]:
And oftentimes, what's great about EMDR nifs is you're not working hard. It's a different kind of work. It's like an opening up, and it's a tuning in. And so things oftentimes, sometimes people will have clearer memories, which helps them. But even that's not always necessary. You know, I've helped people process stuff. What happened when they were nine months old? Well, they don't remember when they were nine months old, but they have some image, some sense of that. When my nine months when my mother left me when I was nine months old.

Todd Creager [00:49:20]:
And I've processed that, and it works. So it's a very fascinating.

Lora Cheadle [00:49:25]:
Yeah, yeah, it is. It really is. And what I like how you described it as. It's not really work, it's an opening. Because I think that's something that sometimes can feel intimidating. People say, I have an intense job. I'm parenting kids. I've got aging parents.

Lora Cheadle [00:49:45]:
I can't even take care of myself. And the idea of sitting down with the therapist and doing this deep, dark, horrific stuff for an hour doesn't sound fun. Not it.

Todd Creager [00:49:56]:
It actually can be fun.

Lora Cheadle [00:49:58]:
Yes.

Todd Creager [00:49:58]:
I mean, I'm not saying every moment of it is fun. You do have to tip your toes into some negative memories, maybe. But the way it works, it becomes fascinating and interesting, and it's like getting to know you more. It's like an intimate. It's an intimacy. And it can be quite fun, actually, and quite exciting. And I have clients that at first might have that attitude. Now come in, looking forward to it, like, okay, let's see what comes up now.

Todd Creager [00:50:29]:
And there's more of an adventurous sense to it.

Lora Cheadle [00:50:31]:
Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, moving forward into the good, positive relationship, which is what most people want, whether it's with this partner or somebody else. Sometimes having the common language and the awareness my husband and I joke about. There's a part of me that is really freaking hating on you right now. But it's funny. And it's like there's a part of me that sees why, you know, and we can have this banter that's funny, but it's also a really, I think, healthier way to communicate. I'm really having some anger now. I really see why.

Lora Cheadle [00:51:04]:
Because I know I'm being difficult in this moment, you know, and then as you each get that acknowledgement. But it's safer.

Todd Creager [00:51:12]:
Yes, that's it. This is all about safe. All about being safer without needing all these protective mechanisms that ultimately create damage. Still, that's what it's all about. And there's a way out. There is a way out for most of us. And it's. It's by looking in, by these processes, approaches and mechanisms to help us with that.

Lora Cheadle [00:51:40]:
I love for you to let listeners know where you're at, because I think you're in Orange county, where who all can you see? Where can they learn more about you, about your work, all of that stuff? Stuff.

Todd Creager [00:51:54]:
Well, I. I am in Orange County. My office is technically Huntington Beach. However, I. I do work virtually and I work virtually all over the world with people and help them with these kinds of processes. And my website, you could see a lot of my videos and there's my podcast. So It's. It's my name.com T O D-C-R-E-A-G-E-R.com.

Todd Creager [00:52:23]:
probably the best way to access me, it's very simple. My email is toddodkrieger.com so it's all about that. And I think, yeah, I mean, I only work virtually. So whether it's people very far from me or very near, for me it's all the same and it works great. The emdr, by the way, people go, how do you do EMDR virtually? I use Zoom sometimes, but I do a lot of work with program called Easy emdr. And we could do bilateral stimulation with eye movements. We could do kinesthetic, we could do sound, we could do. It's amazing what you could do virtually these days.

Todd Creager [00:53:00]:
I have found it to be just as effective as when I worked in person.

Lora Cheadle [00:53:05]:
Yeah, it is. And just speaking personally, I have not worked with you, but at one point my therapist even had me buy the EMDR machine, which was like $99. And I did the little paddle.

Todd Creager [00:53:17]:
You could do it. It's very. Yeah, it's very calming. You could do it right there. That's a good way to do it too. I never. You could have it and say, go do that now. But I have that program that you don't even need to do that.

Todd Creager [00:53:27]:
I also have programs, I mean, I have to say, I have on this level, I have the Infidelity first aid kit and it's all on my website. It's very reasonably priced.

Lora Cheadle [00:53:39]:
Yeah, you got a lot of good stuff.

Todd Creager [00:53:40]:
And then I have Healing Infidelity from the Inside out, which is a whole bigger program that could be a great standalone or adjunct to working with someone like myself. And it's all on my website. And I have other programs too on communication, but the infidelity ones. Yep, that's.

Lora Cheadle [00:53:58]:
Yeah, it's good work. So thank you for sharing your time, your insight, your wisdom. It was a great conversation and listeners. I encourage you to pause to go back to re. Listen to parts of this, if you are curious about it, to even just do some basic googling on internal family systems on EMDR and just get curious about what's possible for you, for your partner, for your relationship or for your next relationship. And in the meantime, I hope you have a fantastic week and always remember to flaunt exactly who you are because who you are is always more than enough. Sometimes I think the most important thing that you can do for yourself when you're walking this infidelity journey is to give yourself some hope. To literally give yourself a dose of hope.

Lora Cheadle [00:55:01]:
Because it can feel like such a steep climb at times. That's why I started my Sanctuary of the Soul group program. It's truly that safe, sacred place where you can go whenever you need that jolt of hope, that clarity. Sometimes we need inspiration. Sometimes we need a shoulder to cry on. Sometimes we need somebody else just to hear us, somebody who has been through it too, and who really, really understands. Sometimes we need practical tools. Sometimes we just need a place to scream or to let our hair down and laugh and to not think about infidelity anymore.

Lora Cheadle [00:55:48]:
If that sounds like something you could use, that dose of hope, clarity and connection, you can get all that in my Sanctuary of the Soul program in. And it's only $47 a month. $47 a month. You can cancel anytime. It's completely guaranteed. It is also safe. It's a truly small, safe step. Go to sparkle all season.com because isn't that what it's about? It's about sparkling all season, in the good times, in the bad times, when we're climbing and trudging up that hill and when we're just relaxing and enjoying Sparkle allseason.com and I can't wait to see you there.

Speaker A [00:56:36]:
Tune in next time to flaunt, find your sparkle and create a life you love after Infidelity or Betrayal with Lora Cheadle every Wednesday at 7am and 7pm Eastern Standard Time on syndicated DreamVision 7 radio network. Uncover the truth of what's possible for you on the other side of betrayal and develop the skills and strategies necessary to embrace the future and flourish today. Download your free Betrayal Recovery toolkit@betrayalrecoveryguide.com.