Part 3 - After the Affair. Take Responsibility & Do the Work: A Journey of Healing & Redemption After Betrayal

Narrator [00:00:01]:

You're listening to FLAUNT!, find your sparkle, and create a life you love after infidelity or betrayal. Have you been betrayed by life your body, or someone that you love, you're not alone. No matter what you've been through, naked self worth helps you regain confidence joy, and enthusiasm so you can create a life you love and flourish, tune in weekly, and learn how. Welcome to FLAUNT!. Find your sparkle and create a life you love. After infidelity or a betrayal.

Lora Cheadle [00:00:37]:

I'm Lora Cheadle, attorney and betrayal recovery coach, who believes the betrayal uncovers the truth of what's possible once we stop focusing on the other person and what was done to us, and we start showing up unapologetically for who we are. I'd love to connect. I'd love to see how I can best support you in your betrayal recovery journey so you can find the confidence and the courage to look within understand what really happened and heal faster, skipping the mistakes, pain, and obsessive thoughts that plagued me during my betrayal recovery journey.

Today is the third of a 3 part series of interviews that I am doing with my husband, Shawn, the man who betrayed me. If you haven't already gone back and caught those episodes, I highly recommend you do because it will really shed light on what was going on in the mind and the heart of the person who betrayed you. The first episode, we went all the way back. And we talked about what was going on in Shawn's mind before the affairs took place. What led him to start cheating in the first place. The second episode was about what was going on during the affairs. In today's episode, we're going to talk about what he has learned after, what his healing journey has been like, redemption, working with me, facing what he did.

And we're going to start with a very important discussion of What kind of a person are you? Because the last interview, we left off where Shawn was saying that He thought he was a really good person. And I was saying, I thought he was a really good person. So we're gonna pick up from the end of that interview and start talking about what kind of a person he is and was. There are 3 things 3 things I just wanna tag. First, you said something about what kind of a person you are, and I wanna go there for a while because so many people will say to me, I don't know who he is. I don't know what's real. I don't know who he is anymore.

And that was something that I thought too. I thought, you must be a manipulative, psychotic the word narcissist gets gets thrown around a lot. And, yes, while there are clinical narcissists, and there are people who have narcissistic tendencies. There's also a people who a lot of people who are just damaged and wounded. What kind of a person are you? Because I always saw you as a very ethical, very high standards, very 1 of your phrases is always do a better job, do the right thing. So I thought you were a good person. How do you see yourself, and how did you reconcile the good person with the person who did this?

Shawn Cheadle [00:03:54]:

This came up in counseling for me. And did a lot of work around this and and and a lot of emotions around this because, you know, that's when you're you're really facing the fire. Right? It's Inside, I always tried to do the right thing and never ever tried to be somebody who got in trouble. I'm scared to death with my mother. So, you know, never got in trouble to please because I thought you you're in big time trouble with your own mother. If if she finds out. So didn't cross the lines. Right? It was a wasn't the bad guy.

Growing up and into my twenties and and and beyond, it it I thought I had this this center, this core, right, that was strong and and sacred and good and and then I started ignoring it because I didn't know how to express how it was feeling injured. And when my core was feeling injured, call out your heart, you know, or whatever it is that I'm where my feelings of of of of feeling disrespected, of feeling like my feelings were hurt, a phrase I've never said in my life, by the way, that you hurt my feelings. And many guys ought to learn how to say that. Right? Noticed men who do say it communicates so much better with their partners or their family.

But it's when my course started getting hurt, I started asking that, and that means I've stopped paying attention to my sort of good center my good centeredness. It started acting out in ways that is just not my personality and persona, and yet I did it. And now I've gotta stand it and face it.

Lora Cheadle [00:05:56]:

That's huge. And that's really well said. Because it is that masking and getting hurt. And just recently, we had a situation with a family member, and I'm not gonna say who it is, but a family member who is a big strong male, and he got his feelings hurt. And the response from the female who hurt his feelings was almost like shock that this big strong manly man could be hurt. And it brought up in me that same belief that what do you mean you can be hurt? You're this biggest young manly man. What? Ben got hurt. And although I know everybody gets hurt, men gets hurt, it really made me realize how I don't know if it's culture, society, what? How we do have that thing that will this person looks big and strong and unhurtable. This person looks like they have it all together. They can't be hurt. It was just a profound experience. It really caused me to self reflect.

Shawn Cheadle [00:07:10]:

Well, I think we all should, you know, as a society, you understand that humans, we all have feelings. We all tick in a very similar fashion and can be hurt. And, you know, it's funny. We we wanna fight for different segments of society, and I certainly get that where you can clearly tell people have vulnerabilities. But the big strong dude, You know? Don't really have to fight for them because they're big enough to fight for themselves. Right? But Some of us don't have the skills. You know? I I love. I adore on Instagram or elsewhere seeing a a big strong dude express his feelings. Watch the Rock. You know, he's he's really good with his dialogue and love to have his skills. Hopefully, I'm there, but that's, you know, Something that I think we all need to be mindful of is that we could step away from our core, and I think most of us have a good center core Mhmm. And if we step away from it, why? Why is that happening? Mhmm. Do we ever recognize it? Because often we don't. And next thing you know, you're at the bar. You're in an affair. You're doing something you shouldn't.

Lora Cheadle [00:08:27]:

So how does it look to return to your core? Talk I mean, there's such guilt, such shame, such regret, and that overwhelming crash of I have to deal with this now, not only for me, but for my family, for my kids, for my there's got to be this urge to escape and to say I'm not gonna deal with all of that. So how do you return to your center then because I mean, that's overwhelming. And I know just personally when I've made mistakes, sometimes I don't even wanna admit to it. I don't wanna own up to it because it's such a big mess up, and I'm afraid that the person won't give me grace. I'm afraid, you know, for for lack of a better word, that I'll be canceled. All of I'm afraid that this is too big for me. But I've messed up too much. And even though sometimes in my heart and my soul, I want to return, and I usually do. I usually do really try to. There's also that just desire to up and leave. How how did you manage that? How did you navigate returning to your center knowing that you're gonna face the music in some really painful ways. Well, believe me, there's there's

Shawn Cheadle [00:09:55]:

a huge fear to do the hard work and return to your center. There's a huge drive to say, screw this. I'm out of here. I wanna write that book. Right? Screw this. I'm out of here. And I'm being nice when I say that. But On the other hand, I know I have the ability. I have the ability to own it really explore, investigate, myself, us, our marriage, all that happened. Talk about it as much as I can, journal it, etcetera. But also very thankful that we had resources. Right? I can pity for a lot of counseling and such.

Now if you can't, I still think there's resources for everybody at any level to to get some help and and help get back to your core. But at first, it takes a commitment. And you said to me, early on after disclosure, that you wanted me to fight for our marriage. And I just had a reading, this incredible experiential reading. That they gave me a card and it showed a night on a horse heading in the battle. And that's what I've always been. I've always been a warrior. I was not the warrior that my core says I am in our marriage. That's what I wanted. If I want the marriage I always want, then I gotta fight for it. Right?

And that's that was a light switch moment. Me when you asked me for that because I realized I'm not doing the work I need to do to stay in my core get back to center and now stay there. Right? But also deal with the shame, deal with the guilt, deal with my emotions, deal with the lack of dialogue to express myself and what I'm feeling. In the moment, instead of triggering and and having anger. So that that raises a lot because it's a lot of works come out of this that or things I didn't even know was going on in me. Yeah.

Lora Cheadle [00:12:06]:

And that is such an important point because the frustration from the betrayed partner in what were you thinking? What was going on? Why did this happen? And you're saying, I don't know. I don't know. And I'm saying that with in kind of in a cheeky way because That's how I hear it from women. I'm asking what's going on, and they don't know. I'm asking him why he didn't. He doesn't know. You're only really starting to know in doing the work. And you've developed the understanding that you didn't have that. That's frustrating.

Shawn Cheadle [00:12:45]:

Well, it's it's really frustrating when You can't just go do your own mind space and figure it out because it's not it's not a solo effort, frankly. You know, it takes it takes some call it a men's group, call it a betrayed betrayal group, whatever. Right? You see a lot of groups for trade partners like like your group, but where's the where's the support for the betrayal, and who really cares about them is sort of the the notion that you get. Right? Right. Unless they're doing it themselves, they're not getting the support.

Lora Cheadle [00:13:23]:

Right.

Shawn Cheadle [00:13:24]:

So but I think the support's out there, and there's plenty of it. You just gotta realize what's missing. My counselor told me recently. She said, during that whole process that I was a disintegrated, Shawn, I'm back to being integrated, Shawn. And what she means by that, and I think what we all need to experience, especially as trailers is that we do have breakdowns and there are flaws and there are reasons why we have gone to porn, the bar, the affair. And if we don't explore those reasons, we're going to stay disintegrated. To be integrated means you have this awareness. Right? You've had your core. You are centered. And if you're doing the practice, using some tools to help you do that, you could stay there. Now you're gonna you're gonna bounce away a little bit. You're gonna have anger. You're gonna have to still have emotions. Right? But you gotta know how to come back in the center. If you're not practicing how to come back, then you're gonna have trouble. Yeah. Right? So and that's where I'm you know, it's 5 years after, and that's hard because part of that's just life and and being human.

Lora Cheadle [00:14:40]:

I'm I like the way that you have phrased that because people talk to me and they ask me, are you happy? Are you really happy? What's your marriage like? Blah blah blah. And what I try to be honest and say is and I want you to echo how you feel about this. I feel like for the first time, we have a level of intimacy that's really, really deep because I now know the worst in you. I see the pain that I never saw before. I see, you know, how you didn't love yourself before. I saw like, I see the the most vulnerable tender parts of you that were masked. So, wow, I see you so fully for who you are now. And I love you even more so beak cuzz of it, and he'll make me cry. But because of your bravery to do that, your bravery to stand in it. And your bravery to practice these tools.

And I feel like our marriage is better than it's ever been. And yet still, we will have some doozies of misunderstandings. And you will try something and fail horribly. Or you will completely not try something in resort to old behavior, and I'm instantly triggered and scared and fearful. And we will still have some really bad moments, but we don't stay in those bad moments. And we come out of them quicker and with more awareness and understanding because now we can say, wow. Look where I triggered. Wow. Look where you Well and because of that, we're growing faster and the foundation that we're building is stronger. And I would love your interpretation of how growth looks. And how the marriage is. Well, I

Shawn Cheadle [00:16:44]:

fully agree. It is the marriage that I've always wanted. It's an integrated marriage. Connected. We're in alignment more often than we've ever been. And I say that because, yes, there's days when You know, we have a down day. It's a stressful day. It's a busy day or whatever. And so we don't seem to have that connection. If you stay in alignment with each other and are always sort of present and aware, to me, it's easier to ebb and flow around our problems in life. Right? So we navigate our negative in our life so much smoother than we ever have. I agree. Alright. So and, obviously, the attraction has always been there. Our we're low for each other. Super strong. And and you're right. There's still times when you might think something is old behavior. I think everyone needs to understand, though. If you're gonna be successful after betrayal and disclosure, everybody has to know it's over. Especially to betray her. I will not deviate from my center core. Right?

I will stand in my goodness forevermore because I know how to come back to my core after pain or injury or whatever. And I know how to deal with that and manage it better in the moment. Not in the moments relative. Is 24 hours? Is it, you know, the next day? Is it within a week? Whatever that looks like, right, for every person, you've gotta stay center. Don't deviate. Don't do those old behaviors. Right? Mhmm. And and I think anybody that's recovering from addiction or, you know, the escapism because you finally start dealing with your problems and you deal with your emotions and you deal with your traumas and you deal with your relationship in a practicing way where you're practicing good tools. Right? Good good experiential communication, you know, the the physical connections that we do, meditation, whatever it is. Right? Whatever your practice set of tools are. If you're using them, I think it's so much easier to keep your joy and understand that you bring about your own joy. Mhmm. And that leads to easier conversations, smoother

Lora Cheadle [00:19:17]:

navigation of negative events. Yeah. And I really appreciate that you talk about coming home to your center. Because in the coaching that I do with women, I'm always talking about coming home to yourself. I want you to come home to yourself. And the thing that comes up is people say, but I don't know who I am. Well, if you don't know who you are, you can't come home to yourself. And that goes to that disintegrated versus the integrated. It you have to do you. I have to do me, and only then can we come together. And that's what made our relationship before. I don't wanna say not a good relationship.

We had a lot of really good times, but that's why it's deeper now because you are more you than you have ever been, and you know who you are. And I am more me than I've ever been, and I know who I am. So now we can come together. So afterwards, we're talking about this enormous amount of, you know, like guilt and shame and how you just decided you needed for to use my terms to come home to you to figure it out. What about how do you manage talking to other people who might not understand. How do you manage me being public with this. Everybody knows you're the guy. You're the 1 who did it. Talk about your core and how you hold strong and yet also express your fear and your shame and the comfortable nature of that. And the reason I'm asking that is because so many people that I work with will say, we have to move. The neighbors know. I can't tell my family. My family knows your family knows. Everybody knows it's you. How do you hold that?

Shawn Cheadle [00:21:06]:

Well, that was initially very difficult. Mhmm. And yet I didn't so 1 of the great phrases given to me during this process was who? Is in the privilege to know about your affair. Well, apparently, the whole public or your listeners will know about us. Right? Right. And this is discoverable, so the whole public can know. And I was ready for that. I knew that. Right? But that's a very different space. And most people are going to enter into, nor do they need to. Right. But if you wanna sort of confide in each other, who has a privilege to know. Does your boss need to know? Does the next door neighbor need to know to your point? Does the, you know, Scoutmaster need to know does who needs to know? Right? I thought that in telling our family, it was really important that we start there, and there was a few colleagues at work absolutely needed to tell. And then I felt like just my whole integrity in center core is going to be called into question, if I don't tell certain people at work that not in my management chain or anything, but I was a mentor in their mentee. And they're really important in my life. And if they found out in a public way and I'm the guy that's been teaching him how to do the job, right, navigating life, I'm not the guy. So I did full disclosure with each of them. Mhmm. And felt like That was a difficult conversation, but they all responded and understood that I was going through something that They just cheered me on.

Yeah. So be careful that, yes, we both had friends that wanted nothing to do with this or whatever. Right? Mhmm. Or it won't talk to me. And how sad for them because they don't get to see the integrated Shawn again, the transformed Shawn, but And that's fine. Yeah. I can't use -- Their path. Yeah. It's their path. And so for me, really, you have to I think as a betrayer, if it's going to feel like more shame, compounding shame, Then you've gotta do a lot of private work to understand why that is affecting you that way. I had to do what was called a Shane album. Didn't have to, but it was an assignment a counselor gave me, and it was magnificent for me to see how often I've experienced shame in my life. Mhmm. Because I didn't think it was shame. I didn't know what it was. Right? And then we had long lot of good discussion around each story that I told in this album. And call it a journal, call it an album, and, you know, pages and pages later, I realized that, you know what? If I faced all that, I can stand in this disclosure and tell the story about us.

Lora Cheadle [00:24:21]:

And just because of the transformation that takes place after it. You know? There's what are you gonna get? What are you gonna get? Gonna get integrated Shawn back. I'm gonna get my integrity back. I'm gonna get my truth back. And you had we had said this to each other before, and I wanna say it here, It's not about I'm doing it because I wanna save our marriage. I'm doing it because that's what it integrous human being does. And if my marriage gets saved in the process, all the better. But I'm also doing it because my kids are seeing this. Like, you're saying my mentees are seeing because a person with integrity does this sort of a thing.

Shawn Cheadle [00:25:03]:

Right. And for some people, it might be religion. You might go to your clergy. There is a a clergy privilege. Right. If If that would be helpful and you're of that set, then I highly recommend, you know, making sure you know how to disclose it and deal with

Lora Cheadle [00:25:21]:

sort of telling that story to somebody else. Right? Right. Who's outside the marriage. Right. And you say tell the story, and in my work, I often tell my people, this is the chapter in your story. We need to close the chapter. We need to make sense of that chapter. You control the narrative of your chapter, write it, close it. Now let's focus on this next chapter. And together as a coach, I will hold the vision for you in writing that next chapter. I will help you write that chapter. I will help you hold the vision and we, I will help you get there. And I do that for the person who is betrayed, but the betrayer also needs to wrap up that chapter. The betrayer also needs to make sense of that and then to write the next chapter for his life or her.

How was it for you closing out that chapter? Was there Was there any sadness in that? Because, you know, you talk about all these affair partners and you wanted the affairs to be done and you couldn't as you said in the last show, you couldn't close you couldn't cut it off. You were afraid of what that would look like. You were afraid that they would tell things would be found out. You were afraid, so you kept it going for longer than you wanted to. But what was your experience in really finishing that chapter? Was there What what was your experience?

Shawn Cheadle [00:26:59]:

Well, it was relief at first, but also Oddly, I was really happy that it was over because I didn't like the whole experience. And in a long damn time. Right? 15 years. I mean, the cluster of other people, right, toward the end of that 15 years. But but it was something that when it was finally over, the relief and the weight lifting off of me, but knowing that if this is gonna work between us, I've got a lot of work to do. Mhmm. Right? And I knew that. And there was clearly Guideposts. Guideposts in my life that there was clearly guideposts in my life that sort of indicated I ought to go do something about my childhood. I ought to go do something about triggers. I ought to go do something about expressing my emotions. Right? That's other than yelling, screaming, whatever. And or walking away. And knowing that finally, there's this catalyst for me. I mean, it was like checking in to to the center to finally get treatment. Right? It was it was like I finally got braves to go to the doctor, so to speak, right, and have something looked at. And here, it's my mind and my heart and my emotions. You know, that had a lifetime of of challenges that, you know, culminated in some really bad decision making and and actions. So relief is is what I felt, and a little a little excited about what the future could hold if I could transform.

Lora Cheadle [00:28:55]:

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, you're not alone too because, again, so many of the people that I work with will say, well, I guess now is the time that I can finally deal with. And you name whatever it is, you know, the loss of a child, the abuse that I suffered, the sexual trauma, the I hear that every single time on both sides. Now is the time that I can finally deal with it. It is a catalyst. It it's a catalyst for both people. It's an invitation for both people if you choose to accept it.

Shawn Cheadle [00:29:28]:

There there is a lot that can be done once that catalyst begins that For me, the ACE test, the adverse childhood experience. My score is ridiculous. But what is perplexing to me is that any human, and when you go if you just only 10 questions. Right? If you just look it up and you look at each question and you think, my god. My god. My god. Anybody that had to experience that. Right? And much much less experience, almost all of them, or all of them. And what are you gonna do about it now? Yeah. Right? I'm not just going to put it behind me and walk away anymore. Right? Because That's good. Yeah, and mask it. I've got to I've got to dig in and see how it's impacting who I am, how I react, triggers I have, fears I have, what shame I have, guilt I have, or whatever.

And how is that changing my behavior in my everyday activity. And am I better or worse for those changes? Because I think the work I've done in exploring Any level of trauma or any level of shame gives me so much more understanding and calmness when new things come up in life. Right? So now I feel like I'm a whole different being when I have to navigate a negative. Mhmm. And yet I still have moments. Right. 5 years later. Right? Because it's a work in progress, and I think it's gonna be, you know, something that's sort of always there. Mhmm. I mean, you don't get rid of trauma. No. You can heal from it, but you don't get rid of it. So you're gonna have that trauma scar. How do you how do you navigate thereafter?

Lora Cheadle [00:31:28]:

Right. And something that comes up too as the 1 who betrayed. And this goes into the the love and infatuation. So in a way, we're looping back here, but we'll we'll need to loop back to go forward. As someone who loves me, who loves our life, who loves our family, who has been grateful for my willingness to give you grace, to give you compassion, to work with you through this, to be there's that deep level of love. How do you deal with or do you have the moments where you kinda look at me and you kinda look at your life, and you kinda think back, and you have a hopeless feeling. Like, how could I have done that? Do you have some of those feelings? And how do you manage those emotions? Because I know that that's something that comes up for a lot of people. Sometimes they'll say, I don't wanna stay because I don't wanna see I don't wanna see you anymore. I don't wanna see the person that I betrayed anymore because it reminds me of what I had fallen.

Shawn Cheadle [00:32:36]:

Ironically, first 2 years of this last 5 years after disclosure, I had that a lot. Has 2 years running. Right? It started to subside because I realized that we were in a much better place, and we could have difficult conversations, etcetera, without feeling like I didn't I shouldn't be here. But there was many times when I asked myself why you, Lora, are still married to me. Mhmm. Right? I mean, what the heck? What were you thinking? Why are you still here? And I think but where I drew strength is getting back to my center. Understanding the super strong core, and it felt really good to be back into my goodness. Then I knew that I'm going to stay and I'm going to face you I'm going to own that I did this, and I'm gonna talk about it. And learn from it a little bit every time. Mhmm. But I I feel like the whole notion of, you know, I need to get away or you should go is gone. Mhmm. Because it feels more normal in in our marriage now to really be you're rebuilding trust I'm being validated. I am expressing, you know, my hurt feelings or or what have you. And in dealing with stuff more contemporaneously, instead of walking away and 2 weeks later, it come back and, you know, I'm still mad or what. Right? Mhmm. Or I go act out.

And because I know it was over, and that was a relief. And had a lot of fear that we weren't gonna make it. And why are you still here? And then all of a sudden, you know, you started realizing we can do this. And sometimes you needed to do some work too. Sometimes I need to go we need to go back and see a joint person or whatever it is. Right? We added some other element. And it's all moments for me. Every time you meet somebody new that could change your life, it's unbelievable. Right. Right. As long as you're doing the work and the practicing, the tools you're given, it's pretty incredible, the life we live. So I think we overcame that that fear of not wanting to be there or face the person. Right? Yeah. That you betrayed or you facing the betrayer.

Lora Cheadle [00:35:21]:

Right. And I'm thinking there's a lot of that self love too. As you learn to love yourself more, you realize I do deserve this.

Shawn Cheadle [00:35:30]:

Well, that's self love, self esteem, overcoming shame, overcoming guilt. Really builds builds a person's strength to realize that, you know what? Yeah. You are worthy. Mhmm. Right? And I mean, look, if if people put in the work and it still doesn't work, okay. Right? Are you better for having done the work? I think you will be. Mhmm. Right? Wherever you take your life from there, you know, if you're gonna split 2 years, 3 years later. Whatever it is or soon. Right? But I think if there's a notion and and it's it's centered to both people, if you wanna fight for it, And you and I are in a class of a whole bunch of people that we're trying to fight for post post betrayal relationships. Not all of them are married either. It's just, you know, life long partners. Right? Right. But I think there's a similar theme in so many of us. Right? The betrayer and the betrayed. And if you're really gonna fight for it, I think both really need to commit to what needs to be done. Yeah.

Lora Cheadle [00:36:40]:

I also wanna bring They have different religious beliefs, philosophical beliefs, whatever. For me, I struggle with the concept of forgiveness, and here is why. I don't feel like it's necessarily I don't feel like It's my job to grant forgiveness to somebody else. I forgiveness is for me. But I don't have the power to forgive you. I feel like we are both inherently worthy beautiful souls, and yes, you hurt me. Some people would say you did this to me in a way you did, but you also can't damage me on a solo level. You can't damage me for a lot of different ways. So I don't feel like my forgive I don't feel like I have power over you to say ding. I now forgive you, honey, and you can say, oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So much because you're so much ahead of me, and you're better than me. And and now I'm worthy of you. For me, forgiveness has that hierarchical property that I don't really like. I feel like forgiveness is a deeply personal thing and that I can forgive you inside of me for me, but then I'm not forgiving over you. And that's just me. That's just a little sidebar. My question to you is, how can you forgive yourself for this? Because this is a lot And how do you forgive yourself?

Shawn Cheadle [00:38:22]:

Great question. And did a lot of work around this, by the way. And it was necessary to do this work, and I think everybody needs do that work. But to your point, forgiveness is is the elusive concept that can be, you know, divine, spiritual, but, ultimately, I think it's very personal. And who who when when you forgive, to say you forgive someone else versus forgiving yourself, I I really feel like The way you've described it, a betrayer sure likes to hear that maybe somebody's forgiven. Him or her. But, ultimately, to your bigger question, how do we forgive ourselves? You're not gonna go on if you don't. You're not gonna fight for the marriage, fight for the relationship

Lora Cheadle [00:39:17]:

if you don't. Or fight for yourself.

Shawn Cheadle [00:39:19]:

Because you're not even fighting for yourself then. Right? So so William was described to me to sort of understand forgiveness because I've always thought of it in a spiritual context. Then who knows if you're forgiven or not. Right? You gotta have faith in that. For me, The phrase was, are you going to let yourself off the hook? If you don't, then you haven't forgiven yourself. If you like yourself off the hook, then you get to a spot where you forgive yourself. So how do you forgive yourself? It's not easy if you don't know why you did. Yeah. So you gotta explore your way. And if there's work to be done around what caused you to do it, then you're probably gonna wanna do the work before you let yourself off the hook.

Lora Cheadle [00:40:13]:

That's something Yes. Because otherwise, it's a spiritual bypass. Otherwise, it's the universe has forgiven me. I confessed, and it's all good. No. It's not. Right.

Shawn Cheadle [00:40:24]:

Not in the long run. It's not. In a short moment, you might feel better about that confession. But have you truly forgiven yourself, especially if you're still vulnerable to doing it again? Because you haven't done the work. When you started doing the work, I think you started realizing that, okay, I own what I did because I did it, but and I could have not done it. Right? Could have found a way not to do it. And yet I did it. So how do I say, alright. Here's here's where I'm gonna go in the future. Here's here's what's changed. Here's what I'm gonna work on changing. Because not a light switch all the time. You have to do some practice.

You gotta work on this stuff every day, whatever it is. Right? Call it your meditations, call it prayer, call it exercise, call it, you know, safe discussions with your partner, But when you let yourself off the hook, when you get to a point where you know that, you know what? I've done Enough self analysis and work, and maybe it's actual exercise. You do EMDR. You do You know, there's there's frequency tools. There's all kinds of things you can do physically even. Right? Maybe it's physical therapy. Right? There's There's all kinds of things you can do to transform. And when you realize that I'm now not vulnerable, I'm now stronger in so many ways or equipped, better equipped to manage my relationship, manage my emotions, I'd let myself off the hook for not having been in that spot when I did what I did. Yeah. And that's where I got to. Yeah. I had to get there before I let myself off the hook.

Lora Cheadle [00:42:13]:

And I would say, you still are vulnerable but you have the tools to deal with it. Because life is painful and like you just mentioned in the other show about, your dad dying and it brought up a whole bunch of vulnerabilities. They're still there.

Shawn Cheadle [00:42:32]:

It's just how you manage them. You and I each took a a vulnerability test, and, you know, it's got these super high scores potentially, and I had a super high score. But they they recommended that we retake that test periodically because your vulnerabilities to your point ebb and flow -- Mhmm. -- throughout life. People's jobs come and go. Right? Carters come and go. Life happens, and you have traumas that can leave you feeling vulnerable. Right. To your point, what are you doing about it? What tools are you engaging to change your behavior now from what it was when you were in the affair. Mhmm. Right?

Lora Cheadle [00:43:13]:

And that's that's what what I wanna pop into now. So many people say, how do you know he's not gonna cheat again? How do you know he's gonna get, oh my god. What if I work, and what if I do this, and what if my partner sheets again. Cheating was a way of acting out. You acted out. You acted out. You acted out. Why is it different for you now? Why do you know that you're not going to cheat again? You were a good person before you didn't cheat for a lot of years, You moved away from your center. You were disintegrated. You've come back. You've figured it out. What in it in you is different now?

Shawn Cheadle [00:43:52]:

First of all, for me, the cheating sucked. The physicality was not what it should have been or what I thought it would be. So forget all of that. I don't wanna go do that again. But more importantly, fighting for you in our marriage is what I did want, and it's far more satisfying for me to know that you as my partner I can engage with you and overcome things that happened to us where I feel vulnerable and not have myself go out and react the same way I used to. It's like you're empowered to be who you are. And I and and and that's right. And in fact, we've we've had dozens of of episodes where things had happened, and I engage with you in that moment, the next morning, or whatever without soaking and being mad for days on in. Right? It's certainly without going elsewhere because that's not happening. And I don't need it to happen anymore because now I do feel stronger. I do feel core centered and right where I need to be. Self esteem is so much greater -- Mhmm. -- in our relationship, in relation, you know, even

Lora Cheadle [00:45:15]:

talking with our family, you know, talking with with anybody about emotion, it's it's a way different experience for me, Yeah. And I wanted to point out or to ask, how was your relationship with your children and your family grown and changed because of this experience?

Shawn Cheadle [00:45:31]:

Well, I like to think even with friends, it's so much better because not only am I Am I able to sort of express, like, to our sons who moved back east and know, I miss them. I love them. But when I feel sad, I'm able to tell them. Right? And I'm able to sort of express my emotion or tell you that I feel that way. Right? Because I'm missing them or whatever. And it's not a vulnerability where I gotta go seek somebody else to, you know, satisfy that need. My needs are met right here, or I do other work to figure out what how do we get my needs met, Right? Without going somebody I mean, another person, a far a fair partner. No. I have lots of support and books and you and you know, counselor and all kinds of ways to figure out how to get my knees met. Right.

Lora Cheadle [00:46:37]:

This might seem like a very strange question. But I also think it's important to ask. Looking back, the first 2 shows. You you used the affair partners, and they used you. They were both very manipulative relationships. You never came together in authenticity. Fair partners were saying what you wanted to hear. You were you know, everybody was out for their own gain. It was very manipulative. It was very unhealthy in all situations. What about for you with your concept of forgiving them or them forgiving you? Or do you even care? Do they even rise the level of I need to care? What is your feeling around

Shawn Cheadle [00:47:27]:

Affair Partners? They don't really get into whether they have forgiven me because I don't communicate with them. All that's cut off. Right? So that was part of our -- But you care even. And, no, I don't really care because To me, affairs are very selfish, to your point, by both people. Not 1 person didn't know that I was married. Right? So they all were selfish in their own way for even engaging with me. And there were people, by the way, in my experience who would not cross the line because I was married. Right. Right? So Florida or not, you know, that person was not part of the circle of a fair people.

My bigger point, though, is do I forgive If I'm not worried about whether they forgive me, do I forgive them? I haven't really worried about forgiving them because I took accountability. You you'd mentioned I use them. I truly believe it was my fault. I did all of this, and I own it. It's not because they entrapped me or, you know, I was somehow manipulated by them. And but that can happen. I I know from our -- Yeah. -- you know, see, in other couples, it's Yes. Absolutely. There's lots of reasons why. You need to understand why. But for me, I didn't need to forgive them But absolutely, they're all off the hook because I know where I stood in my accountability. Mhmm. And so Yeah. Maybe they want to forgive me for that. That's up to them. Right?

Lora Cheadle [00:49:13]:

Right. But it's yeah. Because that's all often a concern for people that my partner's gonna need to contact with their affair partner to have closure. And to me, you only need closure if you're in love and if there's a real relationship, then It it just the apathy versus the love enclosure. Talk about that.

Shawn Cheadle [00:49:37]:

I don't know what all the dynamics are around. Needing closure in affairs. But for our experience, it was immediate cutoff, you know, blocking contacts, blocking, cell phones, changing email, whatever it was, it was social media blocks, you know, whatever that that was necessary. To me, that was the relief that I felt. It felt like I didn't know how to end it on my own, and suddenly, I'm empowered to cut it off. Yeah. So however that closure needs to occur for the but it's sort of 2 ways. Right? And both parties need to be involved in that so that you feel safe as a the betrayed person, I think. That, you know, it's not some thread that that's the problem. Right? It's the closure can just go on and on. And there's some thread that's left as a tickler that, you know, You still have this communication route. For me, it was better to cut everything cold turkey and be done with all communication.

Lora Cheadle [00:50:45]:

So that I could move on. Yeah. And then the last 2 questions around that. With the cutting off with the cold turkey, 1 of the big fears is what if she comes back? What if you get contacted in some other way? What if you run into those people? Is that gonna make you feel? What are you going to do? What's your plan around that?

Shawn Cheadle [00:51:06]:

Well, we get a lot of advice in this in this arena because for some people, there is an opportunity for interaction. And, fortunately, for us, it wasn't routine, but there was 1 person that comes into you know, our purview from time to time at this 1 conference. And my steadfastness in my change When I, you know, I did not talk to that person. I did not engage with that person. I don't even say hi to that person. And I don't know that everybody can do that. Right? Depending on who this a fair partner is. Mhmm. Do you have to move? Do you have to leave jobs? I mean -- Maybe. -- that maybe? Maybe. Right? That's the anecdote for some. But I think that you have to understand a game plan. You gotta disclose it to your partner. Right? If you're a contact and you and I have that agreement. It's never happened for thank god. I've not won email, cell phone, nothing because the whole block, first of all, But, you know, I've always been on the watch for who's trying to friend me on social media. Right? Is it This person trying to reach me, I think they all realize no. In my situation, they're done. I'm done. I'm not allowing communication, so I don't want it. But I know that that can be a challenge for people because maybe the affair per you know, other person is not. Done. Right. You know, I hate to say the fatal attraction, but some of that can persist. Yeah. It can.

Lora Cheadle [00:52:42]:

So then what would you say to men in your situation. Men who have betrayed their partner, they don't really know what's going on, and maybe who are still in the phase of, well, yeah, it's your fault. What would you say that men who have betrayed their intimate partner?

Shawn Cheadle [00:52:59]:

Well, don't do what I did early on after disclosure. I wrote 11 reasons why all this happened, and everyone on what blamed you. That was a bad day. Yep. And, you know, you realize, no, that's not what I'm actually you know, it it took some some work to get to a point where I'm not blaming you for the my actions because I realized, you know, holy cow, you're right. Not 1 of those 11 items caused me to go engage with another person. Not 1 of them. And that idea to blame you for what I've I've fully accountable on. It feels like you want to blame, the other person because you haven't resolved some conflicts. You haven't resolved, you know, some pains. And that's the work I went and did. Right? And I do think you need to identify, as 1 counselor told, told me 1 time, you know, disputes between partners or, like, boxes in the room. And if boxes start filling the room, you can't get to each other -- Mhmm. -- you know, through these boxes unless you open each 1 up and start doing the work. Most people don't wanna do that after the box is adult up. So we didn't have a whole lot of boxes. We had a few big ones, but mostly, I had my inability to interact when we're standing there in a blank room. Yep. Right? But I didn't even realize that. So when I did the work, started self reflecting on what is my role in everything. Right? I'm accountable for the affairs.

Number 1. Number 2, if I want the relationship I've always wanted, then I've gotta go do the work. That I need to do in order to be able to stay engaged, stay connected. Right? And express myself to you in a way that you can now validate. You've heard me. You understand. Maybe there's We're both turning dials so that we're staying in sync. Yeah. So here here's a point that I think is really critical for anybody who is a betrayer. And that is that each person who has betrayed somebody needs to understand how important it is to get back to their center, their core. In in in all walks of their life, you know, whether they're a parent, a brother, a child, whatever it is, a colleague, a work, a manager, whatever you do, when you're at your core, you're so much better. You operate better. You love better. Connect better. Right?

And I think it's worth it for everybody to go do the work because whatever caused somebody to have an affair, all of our whys, lots of whys out there, they all are having some underlying vulnerability. I can almost guarantee you. And so if you don't explore that and explore how you're dealing with that today, and you're not doing the work. What I'm here to tell you is it's worth it to do the work. Even if your relationships are not gonna stay together, you are gonna be a better person for doing the work. Yeah. And being a better person means that that that core goodness that almost everybody's got. Right? And how can you navigate life without that. Right? To me, that's why it's worth it because you're empowered in every walk of your life after you've done that work.

Lora Cheadle [00:56:48]:

Thank you. I love that because, you know, like I say, betrayal uncovers the truth. Not the truth about the affair and what happened, you did what, but the truth about what is inside of you. That needs healing, that needs love, that needs attention. And, yes, the focus is often on the person who was betrayed, But it was my intent with these shows to also bring focus to the person who is the betrayer because they have a soul to. They have a good core too, and their betrayal has also uncovered the truth of their pain and what they need. So thank you for being here. Thank you for speaking. And listeners, thank you. And I hope you can share this if the person who betrayed you is open because I think it's going to do a lot of good. And as usual, have an amazing week. And always remember to FLAUNT! exactly who you are because who you are is always more. Bad enough.

Narrator [00:57:58]:

Tune in next time to FLAUNT!. Find your sparkle and create life you love after infidelity or betrayal. With radio host and live choreographer, Lora Cheadle, every Wednesday at 7AM and 7PM eastern time, on syndicated DreamVision 7 radio network. Develop naked self worth and reclaim your confident enthusiasm, and joy so you can create a life you love and embrace who you are today. Download your free sparkle through betrayal recovery guide at naked self worth dot com.