Dr. Robert Weiss, the founding director of Seeking Integrity LLC, dedicated his career to understanding and treating sex addiction. If your partner struggles with any addiction, or you are concerned they might, this show provides vital guidance that will benefit you both. After all, whether or not infidelity is involved, addiction is still a betrayal.

Top Takeaways

1. Idleness of Threats: Dr. Weiss underscores the importance of following through on ultimatums, especially when dealing with addiction. Empty threats can undermine your stance and lead to being taken for granted. If you promise to take action in response to a relapse or deceit, you must follow through to establish firm boundaries.
2. Boundary Setting Over Immediate Departure: Instead of immediately leaving a partner who has relapsed or lied, Dr. Weiss suggests starting with practical boundary-setting measures. These can include ending sexual relations and relocating the addict’s sleeping arrangements, which helps in reclaiming your space and self-respect without uprooting your life all at once.
3. Honesty and Communication as Cornerstones for Recovery: Both Dr. Weiss and Lora Cheadle stress the significance of honesty and small acts of truthfulness in rebuilding trust. It’s not just about major confessions but also about owning up to everyday actions and lies, which collectively help in restoring faith and intimacy in the relationship.

For those looking to delve deeper into the topic, Dr. Weiss offers additional resources, such as his 11 books, podcasts with over 1.6 million downloads, and online presence, making extensive information accessible for continued support and learning.

 

Listen now to uncover how you can foster a positive, trusting, and compassionate relationship after betrayal. Continue this empowering journey by tuning in to our future episodes and letting us guide you towards a life you truly love.

Are you ready to Rise Up & Reign as the creator and queen of your life, let’s talk. I will walk by your side and give you the perspective, permission, and wisdom needed to turn your betrayal experience into something constructive, empowering, and transformative in all the right ways.

Work individually with Lora or complete her online Rise Up & Reign Affair Recovery Program in the privacy of your own home. Learn more at www.AffairRecoveryForWomen.com

 

About Dr. Robert Weiss

Dr. Robert Weiss LCSW, CSAT is Founding Director of Seeking Integrity LLC, which provides residential and online treatment, education, and support for male sexual addicts and their families. Seeking Integrity also offers specialized residential treatment for men with co-occurring sexual and substance abuse disorders.

An educator, author, and licensed clinician for nearly 30 years, Dr. Rob has created six residential intimacy and addiction treatment programs in the US, Southeast Asia, and the US military. He has served as a subject-matter expert for numerous major media outlets, including CNN, NPR, and The New York Times, among others. Dr. Rob is the author of eleven books, including Prodependence, Sex Addiction 101, and Out of the Doghouse. His Psychology Today blog, “Love and Sex in the Digital Age,” has over 22 million reads, while his podcast, “Sex, Love, & Addiction,” has over 1.2 million downloads. Learn more at www.seekingintegrity.com

 

About Lora:

Lora Cheadle is an attorney, TEDx speaker, and betrayal recovery coach who helps women turn their devastation into an invitation to rise up and reign. Whether reclaiming what they let go of along the way, rebuilding their identity, or stepping into a stronger sense of self-trust and self-worth, Lora’s expert guidance empowers women to uncover the truth™ of what they are capable of and deserve. After being shattered by her husband’s fifteen years of infidelity, Lora knows firsthand the skills and strategies necessary to stop feeling broken and start living fully and freely.

She is licensed to practice law in California and Colorado, is a trauma-aware coach, clinical hypnotherapist, somatic attachment therapist, advanced integrated energy practitioner, and is certified to teach yoga, mindfulness, group fitness, and personal train. She is the author of the International Book Awards Finalist and Tattered Cover Bestseller, FLAUNT! Drop Your Cover and Reveal Your Smart, Sexy, & Spiritual Self and host of the podcast FLAUNT! Create a Life You Love After Infidelity and Betrayal. She lives in Colorado and loves travel, adventure, and a good book. Learn more at www.loracheadle.com and follow me across all social!

 

Get Relief Now!

Download your Sparkle After Betrayal Recovery Guide at www.BetrayalRecoveryGuide.com and start reclaiming yourself and your life today!

 

Untangle yourself from the past, reclaim your power, and own your worth so you can create a future you love on your own terms. All with a wink and a smile! Learn more at www.loracheadle.com and follow me across all social!

 

 

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Purchase Lora’s book, FLAUNT! Drop Your Cover and Reveal Your Smart, Sexy & Spiritual Self on Amazon, IndieBound or wherever books are sold.

 

Transcript

 

Lora Cheadle [00:00:02]:
Hello, and welcome to Flaunt, create a life you love after infidelity or betrayal. I’m Lora Cheadle, and today, I have got doctor Robert Weiss as a guest on my show. And I’m really looking forward to this interview and to sharing this information with you. He is the founding director of Seeking Integrity LLC, which provides residential and online treatment, education, and support for male sexual addicts and their families. And I will definitely have him share more about that. But today, we’re going to get very clear on things like sex addiction, porn addiction, the interplay of alcohol, or any type of substance abuse with those, and also chronic infidelity. So with that, welcome to the show, doctor Weiss. I’m really excited to have you here.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:01:02]:
Hey, Lora. You know, when I hear the subject, I think, oh, that’s gonna be a lot of fun to talk about. For us, it’s great. For other folks, it’s heartbreaking, but I’m really, really glad to be here if I can help educate folks.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:01:26]:
I have the issues. I had some very problematic compulsive behavior when I was in my twenties. And what that resulted in was seeing the AIDS virus running around, and I thought, wait a minute. This is a problem. I started going to 12 step meetings and realized there were a whole bunch of people who were having sex in ways that was going to kill them at the time. And I thought, I know a little bit about meetings and program and recovery and sex addiction. Maybe I can help some people not walk over that edge. And so that’s what led me to the masters and all the work and teaching.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:01:56]:
And I worked with this man named Patrick Harnes, who’s the with the founder of the field, and I got to work with him. And and then it just blew up from there. A lot of media, a lot of outreach. You will find me in Newsweek talking about Bill Clinton and that little blue dress, which tells you how old I am. But I’ve kind of been in the background this whole time, educating, creating programs, and writing.

Lora Cheadle [00:02:18]:
Mhmm. You said kind of been in the background. That really struck me because these are issues that I think so many of us kind of either want to put in the background because we’re uncomfortable talking about them or we feel embarrassed or ashamed. And then when we start educating ourselves, when we start finding people like you, we realize, oh, we are most certainly not alone in this.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:02:48]:
Oh, I don’t think that that anyone, is alone with the kinds of pain and loss and betrayal that accompanies these issues, whether it is infidelity all the way to compulsive behavior. And, you know, I I think, like many therapists, your pain is is your pain, and my pain is my pain. Pain is still pain. And so I think it’s the loss and the hurt and the anger and all of that that brings us together much more than the issues themselves, like any addiction.

Lora Cheadle [00:03:17]:
Yeah. Yeah. You’re right. It doesn’t matter what it is. It all hurts. One of the things that I really appreciate about your work is you get to the root of the of the thing that’s happening, whether it is porn, whether it is infidelity, whether you really work hard to get to the root of the issue. So what I’d like to do now is kind of talk about what are some of these issues, and is there a common root? And if so, how do we go about figuring that out, figuring out what is the problem?

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:03:54]:
Well, I will say that I was just meeting with some of the some of our patients today. I I go in the clinic, and I do work with them. And there’s always a question about why. Why am I like this? What kind of person I am? Who would do this? What what is it about me? And, while I value that question, and I’m glad to respond to it in some way, I think what’s more important to me in the work is how do I stop? Because and I you know, as a therapist, we endlessly wanna talk to people about their past. I think that’s useful and important. But on the other hand, I as I say to the clients, I could show you a frame by frame reel of your entire life. And you would say, oh, that’s I can see yeah. That makes it and you would still act out, and you would still be an addict.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:04:34]:
So my first priority in treatment is to help people understand the issue and find their way out. My first priority with spouses is for them to come to terms with the grief that they’re gonna be experiencing and what they have to face. I will say that, that I think there are 2 elements that relate to any addiction. 1 is a genetic makeup. And we are beginning more and more to see and I did a wonderful podcast with a woman by the name of Evelyn Higgins, who is a, g what are those people who studied gen a gen genetic cell I don’t know what she is, but she studies genetics, and she has a there is pretty clear evidence of the markers in DNA where alcoholism, for example, can be seen. And so there is absolutely a nature component to the vulnerability of this, like depression or anxiety. But the other piece is how we grow up. And there’s a real interplay between those because you may grow up with the gene that may make you depressed.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:05:32]:
But if you grow up in a very nurturing stable environment, that gene may not express itself and that may not. However, most of the clients that I work with, they have the genetic issues and then they’ve grown up in extremely problematic and painful environments. And that stressor and the internal leaves them to choose to ending up with choices for emotional survival that a healthier person might not choose. Mhmm. That was kinda convoluted, but I hope it made sense.

Lora Cheadle [00:05:59]:
Yeah. And I was gonna say I I just wanted to break that down a little bit because of what I’m hearing you say is it’s both nature and nurture. There is the genetic component. We are wired for it, but depending on what happens in our childhood, in our life, we can either go down that path or not. So what I’m also hearing hearing you say is we’re not predestined. It’s not like, well, it’s it’s not my fault. I was born this way.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:06:28]:
Well, I, and you’ll have to explain to me what you mean by predestined. Maybe I can understand that better, and I’ll answer your question. In other words well, let me try it this way. To me, it’s a difference between someone who, is not a good person and they intend to cause harm and someone who’s a broken person. And most of my clients come in and they hate themselves despite the excitement and fun, and addiction can be fun when it works, that they’ve had out there. They are miserable. By the time they get to treatment, they realize they’ve hurt other people. They have a lot of shame about it.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:07:01]:
And so they basically come in and say, well, I’m a terrible person and I’m an awful person and who would do this? And I try to get them to, well, you’re actually a broken person, that you have real problems related to the past, and you have acted them out in your adult life. I think to me, the defining thing is intent. If I intend to hurt you, not such a good person. If I hurt you inadvertently because of my own emotional challenges, then I’m just a really troubled person who has the wrong path. Are we predestined to do this? No. There are people with the addiction gene who it never expresses themselves. Someone with a depression gene where they might just be mildly unhappy sometimes, and then there are those where nature really hits you in the face I’m sorry, where nurture really hits you in the face and you end up in those situations. Cortisol, stress hormone, not such a fun thing.

Lora Cheadle [00:07:52]:
No. No. And that answered that very, very well, and I appreciate, especially as a lawyer, the idea of intent. And the intent to cause harm is absolutely different than an unintended consequence of your behavior, and yet still the harm remains.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:08:11]:
Well, certainly, the harm to the family members and the spouse. You know, to me, as a spouse, I don’t care where it came from. I don’t care what your problem is. I don’t care you know, for the most part, they’re so angry and feel so personally violated and betrayed as they should that having empathy for the person who caused the problem and desiring insight is not necessarily where they are coming from. They wanna understand the problem in general. What does this mean? Where does it come from? How do you work with it? I think spouses of sex and porn addicts are the most researched population I’ve ever met. They read every single book. They listen to every one of my podcasts.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:08:46]:
They are well educated. And by the way, I wanted to speak to that. I think that and I you’ll have to bring me back to the subject because I wander. But spouses, I think, partners of addicts in sex act in particular, they wanna know everything they possibly can. They wanna read every book. They want every podcast. And then when they’re talking to spouse, they wanna this, they wanna that, they wanna do this. And I think there’s an idea for a lot of spouses that if I hear this answer, if I learn this thing, then I will feel better.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:09:15]:
And, you know, in most cases, if you learn about, you know, the affection you have, you’ll feel better. You’ll understand it. But in this case, spouses and partners are asking questions, that are not gonna make them feel better. The more they learn, the more they wanna learn. The more they learn, the worse they feel. So, actually, a consistent sort of, drilling down on what is this and what is this and what happened and where did it happen? Well, the idea of it makes sense that well, let me say it this way. If you just tell me this, I’ll feel better. Well, I’ll tell you this, but then you’ll have another question.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:09:49]:
And then because what you’re looking for is safety and comfort. And if you get the answer, you’ll feel better. But the reality is the safety and comfort doesn’t come from the answers. It’s as I say to a lot of spouses, welcome to crazy to your new norm. You know, it’s a tragedy. And I shifted to spouses, and I I apologize for that, but their journey is is, is a really painful one.

Lora Cheadle [00:10:10]:
Yes. And as the spouse, I can can relate to that. You absolutely do keep seeking answers, and you think I can figure this out. And, yes, it is control. And you do hit that point where you just realize, I can’t change any of this. I do know enough, and this knowledge isn’t it’s not empowering me. When you learn something and then it empowers you to make a different decision, that’s enough. When you’re learning things and it disempowers you, that’s when that point of diminishing returns happens, and you have to just tell yourself to stop.

Lora Cheadle [00:10:45]:
It’s its own kind of addiction in a way.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:10:49]:
Well, I I I think that it is, trying to become uncrazy. You know, this has made you crazy. And, let me just go back and say that, I do think spouses have a right to understand what has happened. And I do think they deserve answers to what has been going on and what hasn’t and where it’s happened and where it hasn’t. But every single detail may not be as helpful to them. And this isn’t really what we we probably are a little bit down the road. Right. But I do wanna say that there is really something called betrayal trauma.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:11:20]:
And in my world of therapy, we would call it an attachment rupture. It is like someone died.

Lora Cheadle [00:11:26]:
Mhmm.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:11:26]:
And in truth, the relationship that you thought you had has died. Mhmm. And I think the most significant thing that spouses struggle with is trust. Because when you’re married or you’re in a committed relationship, my assumption is when you go out the door, Lora, that you would never do anything that you know would hurt me. You would never choose to do something. You would at least always have my back. You know? And then to know that the person who you love and is there to respect and support you has made decisions out in the world that they know will cause you harm emotionally and they’ve chosen to do it anyway, well, then you can never look at them in the same way again. And in fact, every time they go out the door, you’ll be wondering something rather than, expecting them to come home and be great.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:12:10]:
And I think that is the worst part is the breaking of trust. Trust is the backbone of any relationship. You’re trusting me to know what I’m talking about and be able to be helpful. That’s a part of our relationship. If you didn’t trust me about it, I wouldn’t be here. So at every level, I think the breaking of trust is the most profound challenge for a a loving spouse.

Lora Cheadle [00:12:30]:
Mhmm. And that does bring it right back home and right back to what we were talking about. Why would somebody do that? Why would somebody leave and do something that they know is going to harm their spouse?

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:12:46]:
Well, I think this is the real struggle for any partner who’s been betrayed. We’re sick people. Mhmm. We’re troubled people, and we have learned early in life to compartmentalize, to put our life into boxes. And so I do think, as an addict, what she doesn’t know, what he doesn’t know won’t hurt them. And as long as I can live this double life and one doesn’t cross the other, then I can get what I wanna need here and I can get what I wanna need there, and everything’s gonna be fine. And the truth is, when I talk to any spouse about their experience I do consultations. So I’ll sit down with spouses and their partners a couple of hours.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:13:23]:
And one of the first things I ask a partner almost always is, have you felt like in many ways this was a nonintimate relationship? And I’m not talking about sex. I’m saying, did you say, oh, you know, I’m upset about this, and your partner said I don’t have time. Or did you say, you know, I really wanna get together with the family and well, I don’t see a reason for that. Or are you upset about something? No. I’m fine. In other words, this is consistent response from the addict of disengagement and kind of, can I push you aside and the issues, which leaves spouses feeling very alone?

Lora Cheadle [00:13:55]:
Mhmm.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:13:55]:
And I’ve heard a lot of partners say, well, I just adapted to the fact that my relationship was gonna be kinda empty in this way. And he or she wasn’t gonna talk about their feelings, and they weren’t going to go into deep and meaningful issues. And that’s just the way it was. But that is the tipping point in me of the problem. It is not just in fact, I’ll say this. I read a ton of letters when we have people at seeking integrity in treatment, and I only treat men. The spouses, if they’re women, write us a letter. And they write a letter about what they’ve been through with this husband, let’s say.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:14:26]:
And we look at it as an opportunity to help them grow to hear the spouse’s word. Now you would think reading hundreds of letters from betrayed spouses that in this arena that it would all be about sex. You know, you had sex with this person. You did this. And how could you it always surprises me that 80% of the letter is you wouldn’t talk to me. You wouldn’t be open with me, you didn’t let me in, or even if you had a porn problem and you told me, I would have helped you. It’s you leaving me in the dark, not trusting me enough to work together that has been devastating. And, of course, there’s a long history of of nonintimacy and non vulnerability and, you know and by the way, I’m busy.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:15:10]:
I’m at work. Why do you I don’t have time to get into this stuff, and I’m tired when I come home or on either side. But then the spouse just learns to expect less and less, and that becomes their norm. Can I say something about kids?

Lora Cheadle [00:15:25]:
Yes, please.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:15:27]:
So two things. Kids pick up everything and they feel everything. So a nonintimate relationship, when they see that, they certainly reach conclusions about what a man is, what a woman is, what a relationship is. But when I ask the men I work with, have you been a good husband? Married heterosexual men. They will say, no. I absolutely haven’t been a good husband. And then I’ll say, well, have you been a good dad? And they’ll say, well, you know, I went to the games, and I did this and that, and I took them to this class. And, you know, I I read them bed stories bedtime stories, so I’ve been a good dad.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:15:58]:
And my response to them is but if part of being a really good father is supporting your wife, supporting your spouse, leaving them not feeling anxious, not feeling distant, then you’re having good to your kids. Because if you hadn’t supported your partner, they haven’t been able to be the best parent that they wanna be. And so, therefore, no. I don’t care how many games you showed at up at. Your job is to sport support your other spouse in the caretaking of your kids, and that wasn’t their priority.

Lora Cheadle [00:16:25]:
That’s an interesting disconnect, isn’t it?

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:16:28]:
Guys hate it. They hate it because they I know I’ve been a crappy spouse, but I think I’ve been a pretty good dad. What do you mean I’m not a good dad because I didn’t support my spouse? You can’t separate those things. Mhmm. You can’t say, well, I wasn’t I was a good I wasn’t a I was a good dad, but I didn’t support my spouse. You can’t those things absolutely come together. So, anyway, the men don’t like that. No.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:16:48]:
Because they wanna hold on to something that makes them feel good about themselves, and dad is one of those things.

Lora Cheadle [00:16:53]:
Yeah. Okay. They wanna hold on to something that makes them feel good about themselves. Most humans do. Most of us do. We’ve already talked about their an addict is a broken person. Nobody wants to stand up and be like, hey. I’m a broken person.

Lora Cheadle [00:17:10]:
So let’s talk about the the this whole treatment. How how do you get somebody to face themselves, to own up? Hey. I am broken. I wasn’t a good partner. I wasn’t a good parent, and not completely crumple. How does bringing them to the reality then launch them into stepping into their power and seeking integrity in going forward?

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:17:35]:
It’s a great, great question, Lora, because it is the, as I said, the initial issue that most men walk in treatment for is I hate myself, and I’m ashamed because I’m a bad person. And if I can move them to, things happen to me and that’s why I ended up this way, then they’re going to be able to look at everything they’ve done with a sense of tragedy and horror, but it they can take it from a place of I am really done some horrible things that I didn’t mean to do, in terms of hurting other people. So we talked about this before, but I think the step is reducing their shame so they can then look at it clearly. It’s very important to me that that the addicts I work with have a really clear understanding of the consequences of their behavior. You know, I don’t want anyone to feel ashamed, but if you can’t take in what your behavior has done, then you can do it again. And what I say to the guys who come into treatment is, you know, you may go back to seeing sex workers. You may go back to your affairs. You may go back to your porn, but you’ll never do it in the same way because you will always know how this is affecting the people you love, how this is affecting your career.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:18:40]:
I think another way to look at it is is that we all have life goals.

Lora Cheadle [00:18:43]:
Mhmm.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:18:44]:
And many of the people I work with, they want to have a happy family. They want to have a good relationship. They want to succeed in school or at work, and they cannot reach their goals because they have this problem they cannot get rid of. And I was just talking to a guy who came into treatment today, and he said, I tried and I tried and I tried and I tried. And I said I wasn’t gonna do it again. I wasn’t gonna do it, and I did. And I just realized I I can’t fix this. Oh, you wanted to talk about the addiction itself, and I wanna make sure that we ask them to do that.

Lora Cheadle [00:19:12]:
Yeah. Yeah. And and and it all rolls into each other, but okay. Let’s start at the very beginning. What is the difference between really an addiction and somebody who is in a bad habit of drinking too much and then they reach out to sex workers or somebody who’s not in an intimate relationship with their partner. You’ve already talked about that. There’s some vulnerability issues, whatever. And I use porn.

Lora Cheadle [00:19:40]:
Whatever. Who cares? I use porn. What’s the difference between using some of these things and a honest to goodness addiction?

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:19:49]:
I’m writing some notes. I think the out of out of control issue comes into play, which I was just talking about is, I drink I drink too much. I get in my car. I get pulled over by a police officer. I get in a lot of trouble. And I say, well, I never wanna do that again. I’m gonna get a designated driver. I’m gonna get somebody to pick me up.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:20:09]:
The addict says, well, I’ll drive down a different street. I won’t drive a car that’s red. I’ll come down a different time of day. Addicts don’t take responsibility. They externalize it. And so sex addict will say, it’s my wife. It’s my I don’t have enough sex. You’re gained too much weight.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:20:24]:
You don’t have enough time for me. I’m working too hard because as long as they can put responsibility on their for their craziness on something else, then they don’t have to really look at changing it. You asked a bunch of question by the way and and and I’m gonna try to answer them in what the best way I can. It’s much easier for a partner, to understand alcoholism, especially in the times in which we live. Maybe 40 years ago, not so much. But I can go to my neighbor and say, you know, it’s really sad. My husband and my wife, whatever they drink, and they’re really struggling and they’re in treatment. And generally, that person will say, gee, I’m really sorry.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:20:58]:
Can I support you? You know, how are you gonna take care of yourself when they’re away? But when it comes to sex, it’s, of course, a completely different issue because of the shame that the culture carries. I’m not gonna go to my neighbor and say, gee, you know, my husband or wife is a sex addict, and I’m having a hard day. In fact, I think one of the hardest things for spouses is they don’t know who to talk to about it. They’re not gonna because you know what? Once you tell somebody in your family, Thanksgiving dinner is never gonna be the same.

Lora Cheadle [00:21:25]:
No. It’s not. And

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:21:27]:
But sex addiction I’m sorry. You go ahead.

Lora Cheadle [00:21:30]:
Oh, I I just wanted to clarify this too for listeners. Sex addiction and an abuser. That’s different. A sexual perpetrator is not a sex addict. Where where are these little Venn diagrams of what is all of that?

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:21:46]:
Well, I would define a sex offender or someone who violates someone sexually as very simply is engaging in nonconsensual sex. I pushed you into just doing something you didn’t wanna do. I looked in someone’s window. I touched them without permission. The Harvey Weinstein story, you know, all the way down that road. Sex addicts are engaged in consensual behavior. Their spouses may not have consented to what they’re doing out there in the world, but I pay a sex worker. I’m having an affair partner.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:22:12]:
I’m looking at porn. The interaction is in and of itself consensual. And so the idea and that is, you know, by the way, the way certainly the Me Too movement. I think we do need to look at what is offending. It’s different in state to state. How old is someone? How not but are they able to give consent? Do they give consent is really what defines offending to me. Sex addiction is the seeking of comfort, feeling valued, feeling important, feeling desired, through the method of being sexual. And it’s someone who’s desperate need of attention validation.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:22:52]:
And those of you who have partners like this, you know, they are endlessly wanting credit. They are endlessly wanting to be right. They’re endlessly wanting to run the show. And, that’s because of their vulnerabilities. You know, it’s interesting when I hear, oh my god, they’re married to a narcissist. You know, they’re the just most awful and I think, but on the flip side of that, they are so incredibly insecure.

Lora Cheadle [00:23:14]:
Yes.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:23:14]:
They are constantly having to prove how important they are because inside they feel so not valuable. So sex addicts are running around having sex with different people looking for whatever it is to feel a sense of control and to feel desired without having to take any risks. Because if you are my spouse and I, and I go to you with vulnerability or need, you may not be available. You might be with a kid. You might be working. You might say, I don’t have time for you tonight. No sex workers can do that for me. No affair partner’s gonna deny me, make me feel bad, be unavailable.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:23:53]:
It is controllable. I am going to put something forward and I’m gonna get something good back, or at least something that feels good. The problem is that those are nonintimate interactions. And when I say intimacy, I really think people don’t understand this term. Intimacy is not about sex. It’s about making yourself vulnerable. If I tell you something that you might judge me for, that you might not like, that you might not agree with, I have made myself vulnerable to you because you may disapprove. You may not like it.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:24:25]:
You may not agree. If I just say I’m gonna do this anyway or I don’t tell you, I don’t have to make myself vulnerable. I have to deal with your reactions. And by the way, addicts will we use the term, they will ask for forgiveness rather than permission, which is I will go do what I want to do, and then later on, I will say I’m sorry. But to make myself vulnerable and say, is it okay that I do this? Or how do you feel about my doing this? Means that you might say no. And I want what I want as an addict, and so I will be nonintimate. I will not open up. I will not make myself known nonintimate in order to be able to run the show the way I run-in the show and not get any negative feedback.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:25:09]:
Anyway, sex addiction is the repetitive, sexual behavior of whatever kind it is for that person that is causing consequences. They are unable to stop. This is not about and I wanna be very clear. It’s not about orientation. So if I’m interested in men or women or something in between and I hate myself for it and it feels out of control, that’s orientation. That is, this is a very silly, comparison. That’s what I like to eat. You know? That’s who I like to have sex with.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:25:40]:
And I I may not like it, but it’s not changeable. It’s part of who I am, and I need to come to peace with it. If I’m into being tied up or I want to sniff women’s feet or, you know, that is an interest I have. It turns me on. I like it. I like to wear women’s panties when I have sex. But that doesn’t mean it’s an addiction. That may be an enduring part of what turns me on.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:26:05]:
Addiction is really not about who I have sex with or what kind of sex I have. It’s about the way I am living out my life in terms of sex. Lying, cheating, manipulation, gaslighting, making sure that I have the freedom to do what I wanna do whenever I wanna do it and make sure that I can get away with it without consequences. And those consequences are very profound, and yet I don’t stop. You know, like that alcoholic, if they said, oh, I was driving drunk, and the answer to that is not driving when I’m drinking anymore, good answer. Addicts, well, it’s because of this, it’s because of that. Bad answer, because then I never really have to address the problem. I will tell you, and and I’ll I go on and on, so I’ll stop.

Lora Cheadle [00:26:51]:
No. It’s good.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:26:53]:
The predominant issue that brings people into treatment is one thing and one thing only, and that is the threat of a loss of a relationship. Mhmm. 90% of my referrals in our residential treatment center are from men, gay or straight, who were threatened with, if you keep doing this, I’m not I can’t do this anymore. I’m not gonna do this anymore. That spouse has set a boundary. Not for you. You do this to do, but I will not be around. I cannot take this.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:27:20]:
I am not safe in this environment, and I won’t be able to be in it if you continue. And, initially, people come into treatment to save their relationships. I quickly try to help them understand it’s about saving themselves. Who do you want to see when you look in the mirror? You know, who do you want your children to see? In your spiritual life, how does this affect your beliefs and your morals? Anyway, it’s all about it’s about how I live my sexual life in secrecy, in hiding, rather than if I make a mistake, I change it. You mentioned affairs.

Lora Cheadle [00:27:56]:
Did you

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:27:57]:
wanna you were something about that you wanted to say, I think.

Lora Cheadle [00:27:59]:
Yeah. You had mentioned something about people maybe you might go back to the behavior, but you will feel differently about it because you won’t understand the consequence.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:28:10]:
For partners.

Lora Cheadle [00:28:11]:
Yeah. And I was thinking, you know, that’s really interesting because you talk about the affairs and the chronic affairs, and that’s one of the things that women are always thinking. How do I know he’s not gonna do it again? And, yes, people are going into this residential treatment. They’re becoming a better person. They’re able to look at themselves in the mirror. They’re having all of this awareness, and yet still this is a powerful addiction because when somebody has been broken,

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:28:40]:
you don’t broken.

Lora Cheadle [00:28:42]:
Yeah. You don’t necessarily let go of 50 years of severe trauma in a 12 week residential program. So let’s talk about how that how that unfolds and how that works.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:28:54]:
Or less. I mean, we will see people for 3 or 4 weeks. And by the way, the rubber hits the road when you get out in the world, when you take the lessons that you’ve learned in treatment and you start putting them into your life and applying them. And that really answers your question to me is I don’t think that if I’ve been an active addict, especially a sex addict, and I’ve lied and I’ve cheated and I’ve manipulated and I’ve blamed you, I don’t think you should believe anything I say. Yeah. Anything. Anything. At least to a certain maybe over time, yes, I’m you’re picking up the groceries.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:29:24]:
Okay. I believe that. But what you can believe is what you see. And so what matters to me is that addict who knows they have a chronic condition Mhmm. Which is like depression or diabetes or alcoholism. Sex addiction is a chronic issue that will reestablish itself when the person is under stress, whatever that is. Are they consistently going to support groups? Are they consistently going to therapy? Are they consistently taking steps and actions that tell me that they are committed to healing? I may not believe what they say, but I can believe what they do. One of the things that I ask, guys to do is to put a real piece of paper real piece of paper on the refrigerator and what and every day of the week, what I’m gonna do for recovery Monday, Tuesday.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:30:14]:
I’m gonna go to the meeting. I’m gonna go to therapy. I’m gonna call someone in the healing process and be there for whatever that is. And that spouse can literally look at the refrigerator and say, oh, okay. I know where they are. It’s 3 o’clock. They’re in a meeting. You know, I know it’s 4 o’clock.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:30:27]:
They’re in therapy on a Tuesday. And seeing that consistent process of attending to it ongoing. I don’t say, oh, I’ve been good for 6 months, so I’m not gonna do this. I’m not gonna do that. In fact, I think I know that the greatest thing that causes relapse when someone has left residential treatment is they don’t do what they’re told. We will say based on your life, you need to do this. Go to these. You need to go to that therapy.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:30:52]:
You need to do this. And for some reason, when they get home, well, I don’t feel like doing that, and I don’t have time for this, And then they’re right back where they started. So it is the consistent commitment to change through action that keeps that person stable, keeps them knowing where they’re at. If someone else can say, I think you’re on the crazy side today, and that’s what will ultimately bring peace to a spouse is you seeing me embrace a different way of living. Yes. And I say to ask when they come in, how many of you work 60 to 70 hours a week? Half the room raises their hand. Guess what? You’re not gonna get to do that anymore. Because when you’re so distracted by stress and feeling so important, you can’t do the work of feeling.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:31:31]:
And it is work, and it is ongoing. And by the way, one of the things that you do you need to do is reduce your stress. And working 80 hours 80 hours a week does not give you time for self reflection to be available as a spouse and all that stuff. So there are some very concrete instructions that they are given. And by the way, the spouses know what these are. You know?

Lora Cheadle [00:31:49]:
That was my next question. Yeah. That was my next question because when you’re in a residential treatment program and you’re living it and everything is designed to support you, then you get home, and I am not blaming the spouse by saying this, but the spouse’s behavior has not changed. And there’s all of a sudden all of these triggers. It feels like that could be very overwhelming to step back into a relationship and all of a sudden be the one person having to do everything differently.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:32:22]:
Well and I think the spouse is this is all new to them for the most part. You know, maybe I knew you did this 5 years ago or you did that. I had I was talking I was doing consultation. I was talking to a spouse, and I said, when did you first figure out that they were doing this, your husband? And she said, well, 5 years ago, he had an affair and he did this and that. We had to deal with it. Then I figured we were done with it. What he knows is he’s never stopped. And he was doing it before they met, and he was doing it at the beginning of their relationship.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:32:47]:
So he has a big picture of what he’s done. She has no idea. She thought it was this. So she thought when she hears that they’ve been married for 30 years and for 30 years, he’s been cheating, acting out you know, for the spouse, it is just such a incredibly devastating moment because it’s not just you I don’t trust. It’s me. How could I how could I not see this? What’s wrong with me that I didn’t notice this? How could I have let myself, what’s wrong with me that I let myself believe this and be fooled by this person? And you know what my answer to that is, by the way, because I am not a codependency fan. I’m not interested in saying, well, it’s your history and what your mother did to you. I think the reason that spouses stay with us is because they love us.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:33:33]:
When you’re an addict you know, if I had cancer, you wouldn’t probably leave. You would say I love them. I’m gonna help them. If I have alcoholism, you’re not staying because you’re codependent. You’re staying because you love me. And I just think that our spouses see and I mean partners, wives, whatever that is. They may still see the best in us, who we could be, who we could become. And I think they hold on to that for good reason in the hope that maybe we will again or can become the person that they always knew we could be.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:34:03]:
And in that way, my partner is an incredible gift to me because they hold a vision for who I could be and what we could have. I don’t think that’s in vain hoping for something that’s never gonna happen. I think that’s folding up the flag for what might happen. By the way, spouses who are, a lot of times, partners get blamed because they’re doing too much. Well, you’re doing all the grocery shopping, and you’re working 3 jobs. And meanwhile, this person’s out having affairs and whatever. And what’s wrong with you? And the answer is, well, somebody had to take care of everything. And if our family’s in crisis and I gain £30 and I stop having fun and I’m looking at what they’re doing all the time and well, that’s because my family’s in crisis.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:34:45]:
Who wouldn’t do that? Who wouldn’t nag? Who wouldn’t complain? Who wouldn’t and yet for some reason, spouses are told, well, what’s you should just stop all that. You shouldn’t do that. And why don’t you it it isn’t that way. When someone lets go of the rope, the other partner has to pick it up, and then we blame them for it. Why did you stop taking care of yourself? And focus on this because our family was falling apart. And who else was gonna do it? So, it’s interesting. We’re talking a lot about spouses. And I think it’s very important for them to understand the addiction because one of the hardest things in this addiction is the personal betrayal.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:35:27]:
You know, if you’re an alcoholic, a drug addict, I can say, wow, you’ve really got a problem, and it has profoundly affected our family, and I am so angry and hurt that you can’t stop. But if you have sex with someone else

Lora Cheadle [00:35:41]:
Mhmm.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:35:41]:
Then it’s very personal, and it becomes, am I not as attractive? Am I not as interesting? Is what what is my failure that you go ahead. And with porn, especially.

Lora Cheadle [00:35:54]:
Yeah.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:35:55]:
Porn is a betrayal. I did some research with a colleague of mine. 83% of women that we interviewed, about 200 of them said, my spouse is just looking at porn. They are cheating. It it doesn’t matter to me in some level whether with a real person or not, because I feel like they’re constantly comparing me to those people. I can never look like that. I can never have sex like that. That seems to be what interests them.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:36:20]:
It might as well be another person. So, I’m gonna take on the porn issue for a second. I don’t have any issues with porn personally. It good, bad, right, or wrong, I’m not here to speak to how it hurts the people who are doing it or their lives. That’s not my job. When it hurts families is is it’s the lie. It’s the secrecy. I wouldn’t mind if you looked at porn, except I found it on your computer, and there was all this stuff I didn’t know about.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:36:53]:
I walked by the room, and I opened the door of your office and you’re masturbating to porn when we didn’t have sex last night. You know? I’m not saying that couples should have in their home or shouldn’t, but the lies, the I’m just not going to tell you so I can do this is, again, the destructive piece of the relationship. It is the it’s the lack of trust that we can agree that this is gonna be acceptable or not. And woe the clients I work with who say, oh, I won’t do this anymore, and they stop doing it at home, and then they just go to work and do it. So No.

Lora Cheadle [00:37:29]:
No. And you’re right.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:37:31]:
If you pleasurable?

Lora Cheadle [00:37:32]:
Yeah. It’s it’s the same issue. It’s the same issue whether it’s porn or anything. It’s it’s lying about it. And like you said earlier, compartmentalizing.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:37:42]:
Betrayal. I am not thinking of you know, one of the I also have a podcast. Right? And it’s popular, very popular. Mhmm. And it’s called Sex, Love, and Addiction. Did you get my little plug there? Sex, Love, and Addiction? Yes. Yes. I I did a wonderful podcast with a colleague of mine by the name of Stan Tatkin.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:38:06]:
And doctor Tatkin is very focused on attachment and relationships. And I asked him, what it what does it take for people to have a a really good relationship? It’s a good thing for everybody here. Right? Especially addicts. How do you form and maintain a good relationship? And the answer was very simple. He said, when one of you makes a decision, the thing you have to ask yourself is, is this good for us? Any decision I make that’s meaningful, I’m gonna be late and someone else can pick up the kids, or is this a good decision for me? I wanna buy that car. We can’t afford it, so I’ll just, you know, figure out a way to get it get it and not tell you what it costs. You may get the car, but is that really the best decision for 2 of you? And, can I tell you my paint story?

Lora Cheadle [00:38:57]:
Please.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:38:57]:
Because I’m an addict. Right? So Yes. A few weeks ago, I we need to repaint the living room. And we repainted the living room, and the color was really bad. Now my husband, he could care less. Right? We get her 23 years. It’s not his thing. He’s like, I don’t care what color it is as long as it’s not peeling.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:39:13]:
But I’m thinking this is really bad, and I can’t tolerate this. So he said, I don’t wanna deal with the ladders and the people. You’re just gonna have to deal with whatever it is. And I said, well, that’s okay because what I’m gonna do is I’m gonna get people to come in when he’s at work and paint these walls and they get the ladders out. And so he won’t know. And then they’ll paint another wall. And then so when it’ll all get painted, he won’t ever notice. Because if I ask him, I may not get the room painted.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:39:38]:
I may have to live with this color forever. I’m a gay guy and a certain kind of gay guy. Those colors don’t match. I’m gonna lose my mind. Okay? But my husband could care less. What I realized was that I couldn’t do that. That my healing and my recovery and my relationship meant that I had to go to him and say, this really bothers me, and I did. And I really don’t like it, and I know you don’t want me to do it again, but I would really appreciate if you would be okay with that.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:40:04]:
And he said, you know, I don’t like us spending the money, and I really wish you’d pick the right color. And personally, I don’t care. But if if it’s really important to you, it’s okay with me. Mhmm. And what was most meaningful about that was my honesty.

Lora Cheadle [00:40:18]:
Yes.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:40:19]:
I may have in the past done whatever I wanted to. One of the differences is for spouses and partners, you may go back to the porn. You may. I can’t. But will you come back to me and say, you know, I got back in the porn last week, and so now I’ve gotta double my efforts because no one wants to hear that you cheated again. No one wants to hear you got back in the behavior, but the worst thing is to find out about it. And one of the things that I feel that I hope that partners understand is that when I come to you and I tell you the truth, that’s new. Mhmm.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:40:51]:
That’s the new thing. It’s not that I’m doing it perfectly, but I’m not leaving you in the dark. I’m not afraid of your reaction. And that is the key to the healing, is the beginning of real honesty. My husband said to me, you know, years ago, you wouldn’t have done that. And do you remember when you did this and that? You didn’t tell me and how upsetting it was. I really feel good that you told me this even though I hate that you’re gonna repaint this room. Mhmm.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:41:14]:
And that’s what I expect is gonna heal relationships.

Lora Cheadle [00:41:18]:
Yeah. That’s powerful because it is the small things. It is the small things. I can’t remember who told me the story, if it was a client, if it was a therapist, if I can’t remember who said that said that, but they had a similar story with the husband coming home from, the grocery store, and he forgot the milk. And he said, I forgot the milk, where his reaction normally would have been, oh, they didn’t have any. It’s a small lie, but it’s the act of standing in the truth. And is there a consequence? And

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:41:50]:
you feel it as a spouse. You feel it. It’s interesting. The men I work with will say, I don’t understand it. My spouse is just some kind of witch. Like, how does she know? My wife and I’m like, well, you’re not that good, actually. Yeah. You think you’ve got it, but they notice.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:42:04]:
And, but I agree with them on the other end of it, which is I worked with a man who was gonna take out the garbage one night. It’s absolutely true. And he didn’t. Passive aggressive, forgot whatever it was. And his wife came home and she said, did you take out the trash? And he said, oh, absolutely. Of course, I did. I promised you I would, but he hadn’t. And she went in to wash her hands into the bathroom and she looked out the window, and she saw her husband toddling the trash thing out to the corner.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:42:30]:
And she came into me and she said, I don’t think I wanna be married to you anymore. And he said, what do you it was just the she said, look, if I can’t trust you to tell me when you forgot to take out the garbage, how can I ever trust you that you’re gonna tell me if you’re with another woman? And so you’re right. The smallest things when you’ve been betrayed become really important because you’re trying to restore trust, and the little things and the big things all add up.

Lora Cheadle [00:42:55]:
Mhmm. I really appreciate your stance on not being codependent too because, yes, I will be with you and we can start restoring trust. Yes. I will be with you and I will make myself open to see what you are doing differently. I will be with you if you fall Maybe once, maybe twice, I don’t know. But it it’s that dance. It’s that game. We will stay together, and we will see if we can both do this or not.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:43:28]:
Well, I have a a a stance, and I’ve written a couple of books about this and I teach about this called pro dependence, which really was odd that came out of my mouth and then all of a sudden which is I am I encourage dependency. I think it’s important for me to look, back in the day, it was all about individuation. You go to this program, you become the best you you can be. And if you put yourself in a bad situation, well, bad on you, you should know better. That isn’t really helpful to relationships.

Lora Cheadle [00:43:57]:
Mm-mm.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:43:57]:
Because, I enter and I’m engaged in a relationship, and I may not do it the best way I can, but my intent is right. You know, I may be enmeshed with you. I may nag you. I may be what one might call codependent and acting out things from my past, but that’s not really what’s happening. You don’t need to look at me and look at what’s wrong with me for nagging, complaining, and you need to look at what’s right about it, which is I why am I doing this? I’m trying to keep my family intact. I’m trying to keep us together. I’m doing the best I can in a very limited situation with every tool I have. And by the way, when people lock up by codependency, I think, well, what how many spouses went to graduate school to study addiction? Why would you expect that someone’s gonna come in, oh, I can’t keep a bottle in the house or I shouldn’t do this or I they’re doing the best they can.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:44:50]:
And I gotta tell you, spouses go into a treatment center with the addict and they finally get the addict into treatment and the spouse is thinking, okay. I can relax now and I can begin to understand this and get support. And they walk in that room and they say, now let’s talk about what’s wrong with you. Let’s talk about your codependency. And I don’t think that’s really what brings a spouse in. They’ll examine themselves because they think that’s a thing that they need to do. Mhmm. But what they really need to do is be cheered for.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:45:16]:
How amazing is it that you hung in there in this difficult situation? What a powerful, loving person you are to do that. That entire flip and putting codependency codependency on its ear, to say everything you did was with the right intent, and everything you did, whether loving or not, came from loving. That’s a complete 180 from codependency, and I believe it.

Lora Cheadle [00:45:41]:
I I I believe it too. I completely appreciate that you take that stance as well. And where I bring that back home to is when you talk about working with the addict, and your goal is to get them to like the person that they see in the mirror, to respect the person that they see in the mirror. I feel like on my side of it too, I’m 6 years out with my addict. I still have to like who I am in the mirror. I have been powerful and loving and supporting, and I have helped him deal with this trauma. And I’ve learned things, and I’ve looked at myself, and I also very clearly know that I have got a line and that I have to respect myself. And in the future, if something happens, perhaps I will leave.

Lora Cheadle [00:46:26]:
Perhaps I won’t. I can’t make that determination now. But for the last last 6 years, his actions have shown me that he is interested in this, that he has created change. He has become a different person. We have had a different relationship, and I’m thrilled with it because it is the relationship I always wanted to have but never knew how to get.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:46:54]:
Or that I could get. Or I knew what it was like because I get you know, I adapt to what what things are. I did wanna say something about leaving.

Lora Cheadle [00:47:01]:
Yes.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:47:01]:
Because I think it’s really important that if you tell me, if you do this again, I’m gonna leave you. Or if you lie about this again, I’m gonna leave you. You gotta leave. Yeah. Because what you’re telling me if you don’t is, oh, they’re gonna make threats as an addict. They’re gonna make threats and then I’m gonna get away with it anyway. That’s good information. So threats, make them if you want, but make sure they’re not idle threats because you’re gonna have to follow-up.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:47:24]:
And if you don’t, we’re gonna run all over you. Yes. Another thing I have to say to sex addict spouses, you talk about leaving as being assertive if you do this and yet and I was just talking to one the other day and she was saying, well, I’m not ready to kick them out. I’m not ready to leave, you know, so I don’t, you know, I I what else am I gonna do? And I said, well, are they sleeping in your bed? Oh oh, yeah. They are. Are you still having sex? Well, yes. We are. Well, maybe The first place to start would be we don’t have sex now.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:47:55]:
Maybe the next place to start would be you need to sleep somewhere else. I can begin to set boundaries to keep myself feeling safe that don’t necessarily have to do with leaving or staying. Nothing that profound. I think one of the challenges for partners is this delusion, illusion. If I have more sex with you, then you won’t go out and do this. You know? If I have sexually if I completely completely keep you completely satisfied. And trust me, and I know spouses can’t possibly understand this, it’s not about you. No.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:48:27]:
It affects you, but it’s not about you. It’s about my insanity and how I live my life and justify craziness. And by the way, I made you crazy. Little little by little, I it’s the frog in the boiling water. Yeah. Well, you’re gonna have to get used to this, and you’re gonna have to used to that. And before I know it, I just accept the way things are. Yeah.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:48:48]:
But I really wanted you wanted to say something about cheating and the difference between that and addiction. And I really I wrote a book called Out of the Dog House,

Lora Cheadle [00:48:56]:
the

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:48:57]:
Cheating Man’s Guide to Healing Relationships. Because in my experience, no man I have ever met, and I mean ever, understands how to heal cheating when they’ve cheated on a woman.

Lora Cheadle [00:49:07]:
Yep.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:49:08]:
Well, flowers. Well, vacations. Oh, my favorite one, it’s been 3 months. When are you gonna get over it? Men don’t understand universally what betrayal does to a woman and the universality of it. It isn’t just that you cheated on me. It’s a, what about our kids? What about our family? What about, you know, all of that stuff? And so, one of the things that I relate to around cheating is a man who cheats is immature. Mhmm. The man who cheats does not understand the meaning of the connection, doesn’t keep what we say doesn’t keep a spouse in mind.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:49:47]:
What I mean is when I go shopping and I see a shirt that my husband of 23 years might like, I don’t just think I’m going shopping for me, I think he might like that. I have him in mind. So, when I go out and I cheat, I, you know and I’m not talking about endless affairs, but I’m talking about I cheat in some way, it’s because I’m not mature enough to understand the meaning and the value of our connection. I’m not mature enough to understand what it will mean to you if I do this. Yes. That’s different than a sex addict. A sex addict cheats, but they’re doing it to comfort themselves, to come some kind of escape. You know, we have this term in therapy called secondary gain, and I really like that.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:50:29]:
So if you and I are going to dinner and with some friends and you have a glass of wine and you’re not an alcoholic, you’re doing it to relax. You’re doing it to get a little social, to have a few laughs, to loosen up, whatever. But if I’m an alcoholic, I’ll have that drink, and I will loosen up and be relaxed, but I’m not drinking for the same reason you are. I’m drinking to escape. I’m brink drinking to disappear. I’m drinking to become more comfortable with myself. So I have a secondary gain. People will say, well, why don’t you just stop drinking? I had a drink.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:51:01]:
I drive people crazy. I’m not an alcoholic. I have half a glass of wine, and I that’s all I want. And the alcoholics look at me, don’t you want the rest of that glass of wine? Well, no. If I drink it, I’ll get a headache. They don’t have the same goal as I do. They want to obliterate themselves with alcohol, and they look like everyone else, but they’re not. And so with the sex addict, I might have an affair, and look like that guy is immature and just makes the mistake, but I do it over and over and over and over again because it’s not about that.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:51:34]:
It’s about me feeling important and me feeling valuable and me feeling in control, and I can never get enough of that, just like the alcoholic can never get enough to drink.

Lora Cheadle [00:51:42]:
Yeah.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:51:44]:
So the cheater is immature. The person who obsessively and compulsively does it over and over and over again is someone who is deeply troubled, And you don’t know that unless you see history.

Lora Cheadle [00:51:57]:
Mhmm.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:51:58]:
Should we talk about the drip, drip, drip of disclosure?

Lora Cheadle [00:52:01]:
Yes. Yes. Because that is very traumatizing.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:52:05]:
So if I’m cheating on you and I’m an addict and you find something on my phone, I’m gonna say, Nah, nah, it wasn’t really there. It was a pop up, whatever. And then I might say, Oh, okay, fine. It was there, but there was nothing else. And I will do everything to convince you because I don’t want you to find anything else. And then the spouse feels like, Okay. I feel like I was in a free fall, but now I know what the foundation now I’ve got something underneath me, and we can go up. And then they find a letter or they find something in the computer or they hear something or they see something on a phone bill and they confront the attic.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:52:36]:
What the heck is this? I don’t know what you’re talking about. Well, okay. There was that too. And then the partner’s in free fall again because now they just don’t know, you know, what’s happening, where they are, how to rebuild, and then they start to do it again and they find out something else. So it is a nightmare for a spouse to hear a little bit here and a little bit because the horror never ends. Right. I have to say, on the other hand, addicts will, in a moment of shame, bomb it all over you. Let me tell you everything I’ve ever done, and then I feel so much better.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:53:06]:
I’ve even had an addict say, you know, I think she will feel better. I just told you everything. Why don’t you feel better? You told me you wanted the truth. I you got it. Why are you still so upset? Because we don’t have empathy. We don’t have compassion and insight into how what I’m saying you’re doing is gonna make the other person feel. Yeah.

Lora Cheadle [00:53:27]:
And can that empathy and compassion really be learned?

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:53:31]:
No. I don’t think so. And I I I I’ll tell you as someone who is an addict who had an awful upbringing, I when I was young through most of my childhood, and I mean early on, there wasn’t a lot of compassion or empathy for me. Mhmm. You know, I was, shoved in the corner because everyone was dealing with what they had to deal with, mental illness in my family. No one talked about it. No one told me what was going on. No one really comforted me.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:53:58]:
It was more like go to your room.

Lora Cheadle [00:54:00]:
Mhmm.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:54:00]:
And so I never learned what compassion empathy was because I didn’t have it. Right. And so the time I would have learned that, which meant I was 2, I was 4, I was 7, that’s gone now. Yeah. And my brain is pretty hard set when I’m 34. I may not ever and I can tell you as someone who has these issues, I still will say things that I have no idea how much is gonna upset you. The difference is is that I have learned, how you react. I must have said something wrong.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:54:30]:
I don’t say, well, why didn’t they just get over it? I say, something hurt them. So I can look for and learn the signs of when I’m acting non empathically, when I’m acting in a way and I can see how it plays out with someone else. I can listen to what I’m saying. I will learn how to manage my problem of you know, part of what we do in treatment at Seeking Integrity, our residential treatment program for men, there was another little, little colette, is I men will come in. This is a great example. And they’ll say, oh my god. I’ve been such a horrible person. What do you mean? Well, I can’t believe I did this to my wife, and what was I thinking? And I I haven’t you know, I’ve really let everyone down, and who would ever trust me again? And they’re crying, and, you know, I’ll say, could you stop all that? What what therapist tells someone not to cry? Because these are crocodile tears.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:55:22]:
Mhmm. What you’re not saying is, I can’t imagine what my spouse has gone through. I can’t imagine what they are feeling. I can’t imagine how violated. I’m thinking about how bad I feel. And that is not compassion or empathy. Feeling awful for what you did is awful for yourself. Teaching someone that what matters is how did that leave the other person feeling? And when I make my decisions about the paint, that was an empathy and compassion built decision, which is I’m gonna let you know.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:55:54]:
I’m gonna let you in on. It’s important to me that you now you may not like it, but you know. And that is compassion for how you would feel if you didn’t know. Now, do I natively say to myself, oh, I’m gonna tell them all about the pain. No. I natively say to myself, how can I get away with this? Right. Because I don’t wanna risk that I might not get what I want, but it is empathic and compassionate to say, I’m gonna tell you you may or may not agree. I’m not wired that way.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:56:22]:
I don’t immediately think how will it affect you. What I think is this is what I want. But the rigorous practice of being in therapy, going to 12 step meetings, working in recovery, doing service has taught me that the the way to healing is about us. Right?

Lora Cheadle [00:56:40]:
Yes.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:56:41]:
I have to I’ll say again. I was gonna buy an expensive car once and, we couldn’t afford it. We just couldn’t afford it. And so I thought, well, I’ll take money out of our savings and I’ll put it down in the car so that way it won’t look as expensive and I can lower the payments, and then I can go see it. So I had all kinds of ways of talking about it. But what I decided was I was gonna tell my husband that I wanted to buy this car, and he said, you know, we can’t really afford it. And I was like, well, it’s the car of my dreams. It’s what I always wanted, but we can’t really afford it.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:57:07]:
So then, of course, I had to call our tax accountant and say, what do you think? Can we afford this? And he said, well, number 1 financially, no. Oh. And he said, number 2, in terms of your relationship karma, bad idea. Listen to them and what they had to say. And the empathy and compassion was because I took them into the consideration of my decision.

Lora Cheadle [00:57:28]:
Mhmm. So I’m hearing it’s learning how to have the awareness as the addict. I don’t think in the way that maybe other people think. Here is the new way of thinking, and I need continual reinforcement and support in order to think this way. And then I have integrity with myself. Then I could look in the mirror and and love who I am.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:57:52]:
And addicts don’t make good decisions on their own. So this is why we’re not cured. The way I think about me first and I want what I want is how I think. It’s not going to change. What does work is if I have a fellow companion in recovery, hopefully, a man who’s also working on this, and I can say to him, you know, I was thinking about getting the room painted and lying and, you know, doing it this way, but at least I get the room painted. What do you think? That person is gonna say, you know, I don’t think that’s really very good for your relationship. I’m not thinking that way in the moment. This is why addicts cannot do it alone.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:58:28]:
What do we say? Your own best thinking got you here into a treatment center. And the way I think about addiction, it really is a mental health issue. Mhmm. You know, it’s like depression. It’s chronic. It reappears under stress. You have to maintain an awareness of that you don’t wanna get out of bed, that you don’t feel like, you know, you have to be able to see it coming and all of that. And in that way, it’s not that dissimilar, because it is a chronic emotional condition that needs to be managed throughout my life.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:58:58]:
And one of the ways that addicts manage it is they keep meaningful relationships with other people they can turn to when they’re going to make a decision so they don’t make a bad decision.

Lora Cheadle [00:59:10]:
That makes that makes imminent sense, and I really appreciate the reframe around that because it’s not this magic bullet cure. It is chronic, and I love the relational piece because my belief is we are relational animals, and we do better with other people anyway.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:59:31]:
So I believe we do. We are meant to pair bond. Yeah. We are meant to create a nest. There are biological reasons for that. The world is a brutal place.

Lora Cheadle [00:59:41]:
Mhmm.

Dr. Robert Weiss [00:59:42]:
And 2 people together are going to have more opportunity to protect themselves and do well. In fact, that’s the whole idea of community. When we come together and we support and we protect and we are much stronger together, that’s goes back to cavemen. You know? Mhmm. If I had the fire and I invited everybody around it, I was a lot safer than that person over there who was sitting with a friend, you know Yeah. Or whatever caveman did. Yeah. So, what else can I answer for you? I think by the way, you and I, we could talk for 3 days.

Lora Cheadle [01:00:13]:
I know. I was just gonna say, I really feel like I wanna keep going on for another hour.

Dr. Robert Weiss [01:00:18]:
Well, let’s come back. Let’s do more. And you can never talk enough about this.

Lora Cheadle [01:00:23]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Robert Weiss [01:00:24]:
That’s Yeah. We’ll we’ll do more.

Lora Cheadle [01:00:26]:
Yeah. Let’s do more. And for now, we’re pretty much at time. So what I would really like is for you to share where people can get ahold of you, where they can find get consultations both for the addicts, both for the partner, and all of that good information, and then we’ll come back with part 2.

Dr. Robert Weiss [01:00:45]:
Or 3 or 4? Yes. So my name is doctor Rob Weiss. If you look up doctor Rob Weiss and sex, I will come up right away. I’ve written 11 books about these issues, and I would say ones in the last 5 or 6 years are the most useful. All my books are on Amazon. I have a podcast. I think we have 1,600,000 downloads, which is Sex, Love, and Addiction. It is about all of these issues.

Dr. Robert Weiss [01:01:06]:
And think I think your interview might be on there somewhere, or it’s going to be. So, I interview all kinds of experts about infidelity and relationship, all of that. Reaching me directly, I run a treatment center and an online program called Seeking Integrity. And so that’s one word, seeking integrity. We give away so I’m Rob at seekingintegrity.com. Right? And one of the things I really wanna say before we stop is that I truly believe in my heart that most people will not get to see a fancy therapist, and many people will never make a 12 step program. This is why I do the podcast. This is why we have on Seeking Integrity, we have 18, 3 groups a week.

Dr. Robert Weiss [01:01:48]:
No charge. I have therapists moderating them for betrayed younger spouses, for betrayed older spouses, for addicts. I want people to get the information that don’t have the resources. You and I are blessed. We can see a therapist. We have good insurance, whatever that is. But you and I know most of the people will never ever have the advantages of this. They may not even have time to read a book, but they can listen to a podcast and you can go to seekingintegrity.com.

Dr. Robert Weiss [01:02:15]:
You can join a group. It’s anonymous. You can listen. You can learn. There are endless webinars and trainings. And then there are, paid courses. You know, sex edition 101 or betray partners 101 or because I do think the educational piece is really important. So it all comes down to I think it’s above my head.

Dr. Robert Weiss [01:02:31]:
Oh, I pointed the right thing. Seeking integrity is where you can find me. And, I think this is my 8th treatment program, and I hope my last. I wanna vacate I wanna I wanna retire. Let somebody else do the work. This is hard work. I will say let me say one more thing. I say this to my clients all the time.

Dr. Robert Weiss [01:02:51]:
If you are a family and you have kids, I’m not doing this for you. You know? I like you. I hope you have a good relationship. I’m a believer that people can come together and make it work. But I do this for your kids because they will have an experience of of an upbringing that will be entirely if I can help your dad be a different person and act differently, your children are brought differently. And that, to me, is the most meaningful piece of all if you have kids. Yeah. We can make big changes in ways that we never thought.

Dr. Robert Weiss [01:03:19]:
And you are, by the well, by the well. Lora, you are also making meaningful changes to every single person who listens to this, So thank you for taking your time to do it.

Lora Cheadle [01:03:30]:
You’re welcome. Thank you. And, yes, together, hopefully, we can, one person, one step, one generation at a time, raise awareness, decrease the shame, and just get people talking because I like how you talked earlier about that vulnerability and the intimacy. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we could just all have a heightened level of intimacy and understanding with our friends, with our families, with our loved ones, with our neighbors, with the whole world. That’s truly where things would change.

Dr. Robert Weiss [01:04:00]:
Just tell the truth in a caring and nurturing way, having them in mind, and it’s a really good step. I look forward to coming back. Thank you for asking me.

Lora Cheadle [01:04:09]:
Absolutely. I look forward to our next conversation. And listeners, I think you might wanna even listen to this show a couple of times. Have an amazing week, and always remember to FLAUNT! everything that you are because who you are is always more than enough.