Speaker A [00:00:01]:

 

You’re listening to Flaunt. Find your sparkle and create a life you love, after infidelity or betrayal. Have you been betrayed by life, your body, or someone that you love? You’re not alone. No matter what you’ve been through, naked Self-Worth helps you regain confidence, joy, and enthusiasm so you can create a life you love and flourish. Tune in weekly and learn

 

Chris Natzke [00:00:30]:

 

1 of the hardest things about finding out that your partner has had an affair is the shame and embarrassment talking about it because it makes you feel like you did something wrong, that somehow you weren’t good enough and that you didn’t keep them happy. And there’s such a misperception in the world around what affairs are like and what it means when somebody has had an affair. That’s why I have created a monthly support group for women who have been betrayed by their partner. It’s for women who are really ready to move through the grief and the pain in a healthful way so they can claim what’s possible for them on the other side of infidelity and betrayal as quickly and as healthfully as possible. And part of that is having community. Having community with people who were positive. There are so many online support groups where everybody’s just really negative and grouchy and they just vent their own pain and they vomit their pain all over you. And this group is nothing like this. This group is honest. Yes, we’re honest, But it’s also about support and community and holding each other and building each other up. If this sounds like something that you would be interested in, go to www.FlourishAfterInfidelity and sign up. When you sign up, you’ll immediately get the Zoom link to our next meeting and then you will be in the loop and you will know when each monthly meeting is about to occur. I really look forward to having you there, to building this community of strong women together. Once again, it’s www.FlourishAfterInfidelity.com. And we’ll see you at our next meeting.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:02:14]:

 

Hello, and welcome to Flaunt. I’m Lora Cheatle, attorney and Betrayal Recovery Coach, who believes the betrayal uncovers the truth, the truth of what’s possible for us once we stop focusing on all of those things that were done to us and we start showing up unapologetically for ourselves. I’d really love to connect with you to see how I can best support you on your betrayal recovery journey so you can understand what really happened and heal faster skipping the mistakes, pain, and obsessive thoughts that plagued me during my own betrayal recovery journey. So be sure to reach out and let me know how I can help you. Today is a special show. And if you have any domestic violence or if you’ve ever been assaulted in your past, let me say trigger warning because we are going to talk about some physical safety. I my guest today is Chris Natsky and I’m going to let him introduce himself because he is so experienced. He is so good and all things physical safety and we’re just going to talk about that and how you can best protect yourself whether it’s from a domestic partner somebody that you might be dating or just again a more random attack. Although as he will say, oftentimes it’s not that random. So with that, welcome to the show, Chris. Great to be here, Lora. Thanks for having me. So Will you start by just telling the audience a little bit about yourself and why you are the expert, why you know all of this stuff? Excellent. Well, my name is Chris Natsky and I am an eighth degree black belt and former national taekwondo champion. So I’ve been doing martial arts since the early 70s. It’s basically been

 

Chris [00:04:19]:

 

an anchor in my life for that time. But several years ago, probably about 25 years ago, I was introduced to a technology that looked at self-defense from a different perspective. It wasn’t just technique based. It was about dealing, helping people deal with the adrenal response so that there was an awareness inside of them that they had and so much of my work now is helping people what I call understand the ABCs of self-defense which is number 1 awareness of their environment as well as what’s going on inside them, healthy boundaries that they can do verbally, they can do spatially, they can do physically. And then also then we move into combatives, if fortunately, if they need to do that, that they can use their body to protect themselves. Yeah, I love that. I have seen

 

Lora Cheadle [00:05:03]:

 

Chris speak a couple of different times, and I was fortunate enough to do a course with Chris as well, where I learned some of those combative techniques. But what has impressed me so much about him and his methodology is the way that it’s not, hey, we’re gonna lean in and we’re gonna fight. I’m gonna teach you how to fight. And that’s really valuable because

 

Chris [00:05:26]:

 

we don’t even wanna get to the place where we’re going to fight. Absolutely. Well, you know, the thing of it is, is that 80% of the way that we communicate is done non-verbally. We’ve probably heard that stat before. And so much of it has to do with the energetics that we’re putting out. And I know that you’ve heard this in our course, Lora, when you took it, is that in our organization, we went to federal prisons and they interviewed convicted sex offenders and they showed them pictures and videos and they said, who would be the people you would prey upon? And in 2 different facilities, 2 different group of offenders, they picked within a 97% accuracy rate, the same people. And it was because of the energetics they were putting out. They weren’t making eye contact. They walked with their shoulders down with short steps. They had an energy of a victim. And what we want to do in our training is help people transform that so that they’re not a victim. They’re in their empowerment. And so that they never have to have that situation, because they’re not targeted. Because most assailants, if they approach and someone now becomes assertive, they won’t try to manipulate their way of dealing with that person. What they’ll do is they’ll just abort mission. They’ll just go try to find someone else. So by being in our power and being able to express that energy,

 

Lora Cheadle [00:06:45]:

 

we’re half the way there. Yeah. If not more. And that’s huge. Huge. And that’s true. So how do you do that? Because the listeners to this show have been betrayed by their intimate partner, which leads you to feeling like a victim. And I like to say, you feel victimized because let’s face it, you kind of have been victimized and we need to deal with the grief and we need to deal with that and we need to have that pity party. But how can we also go grocery shopping to be safe, deal with attorneys, maybe deal with our former partner, and not project that energy of like, I’m feeling great, when really we’re feeling like, I’m at the worst point in my life. Well, boy, that’s

 

Chris [00:07:28]:

 

such an impactful question. So I mean, first of all, I think that when we are in those situations, unfortunately, it’s very important for us to feel those feelings. It’s important for us to work through those and move through our process because many times I think what we can do is if women in particular have been abused is just to try to push that away. That’s not something they want to deal with. And it’s, boy, it’s difficult to deal with, but there’s so much payoff on the back end, right? Because now that’s where you find your power. I also don’t necessarily enjoy using the word victim, Right? You know, we have these situations that occur to us, but if you are, say, victimized, you’re not a victim, but you’ve been victimized, then what you want to do is you want to move to a victory, right? And part of that is finding your power. And So much of the work I do is finding power in your voice Because so many people have difficulty particularly women because I think you know There were socialized there socialized that way is to stay quiet Don’t speak your mind And I mean part of the work that we do is we literally do scenario based training where I play the role of the attacker, as you know. Oh, I know. You know. And then we train people on how to use their voice in order to back that assailant away. And it’s so interesting because oftentimes I will literally see people’s entire physiology change within A23 hour time period. They come in, they’re a little bit meek, their shoulders are down, whatever. And at the end, they’re this Tigris. And so there’s no it’s not like I can give you like the 5 steps to doing this. It’s it has to be experienced. It has to be experiential. But the 1 thing I want your listeners to know is it is possible. I have dealt with so many people who have come to us that have had traumatic experiences and literally had a breakthrough right in front of our eyes because in the work that we do, they literally were able to reformulate what had occurred. They changed the script and now we held them to living that experience and then they had a better outcome. So that’s some real empowerment there. Yeah, That’s huge. And again,

 

Lora Cheadle [00:09:32]:

 

I like what you say that it’s not like you can say 12345.

 

Chris [00:09:36]:

 

Here it is. But going back to that A, it’s the awareness. How are you showing up? Totally. And sometimes that’s all that it takes. Right. Well, you know, and awareness comes in 2 ways, right? And you’ve heard me say this before, is number 1, is be aware of your environment. So many of us are distracted. We’ve got our cell phones, we’ve got, we’re on the phone when we’re driving, et cetera. We’re not aware of what’s going on. And sometimes I think that becomes our, we think that’s working for us. It’s a defense mechanism, right? If we don’t look at it, it’s not there but it is But the other thing is what’s going on inside of you when somebody says something to you. That’s a law of color Are you notice it and notice? Where is it in your body? Because those adrenal responses that we have were there, they’re actually there to help us. But if we don’t know how to deal with them, you know, we’ve all heard about fight or flight, right? But the 1 thing we’re not aware of is the third element of that is freeze, And that’s where most of us go. And I always say in my seminars, if you don’t think that’s right, think about the last time you were in maybe a verbal altercation with someone, even if it was, you know, relatively mild and all of a sudden you didn’t know what to say. And then you were driving home 15 minutes later and all these ideas came to your mind. I should have said this right. It’s because you didn’t know how to deal with the adrenal response and it’s literally there to help us. But when we have those feelings come forward, it can be overwhelming and we freeze.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:11:00]:

 

I love that you use that as an example because hopefully nobody is in a situation like that with a stranger and there’s an altercation. But most of the listeners here are going to have responses like that with their

 

Chris [00:11:15]:

 

partner. Right. Well, I’ll tell you, you’ve heard me say this as well, is that FBI will tell us that 80% of women who are attacked are attacked by men that they know. And about that same percentage of physical assaults will be preceded by verbal intimidation before it ever gets physical. So being able to access that now, I think that 1 of the most powerful things someone can understand is just the power of no. Being able to say no. Now that transfers so many aspects, but many times we feel like we don’t have the right to say that. And if I were to give you a big long script of when somebody comes to try to attack you, you’re not going to remember that. But if you remember, no, you’re too close, back away, not now. And you say it in this assertive way There is an energy to that and I always love with 1 of my coaches told me he said Chris He said when your nose are powerful your yeses are even more powerful Right Because now when you know what you’re going to say no to, and you’re not going to allow in your, in your energetic sphere, when you say yes to something, you’re committed. Oh, I like that. Right. So it’s it. And what I would suggest if you, if you think about a little tool is it’s kind of an analogy if you’ve ever seen the Jim Carrey movie Yes Man, have you ever seen that movie? Yes. Where his coach told him to say yes to everything? I would say on the other side of that is just practice saying no. In small ways, we start to get comfortable with it. And then as you begin, it begins to become more automatic. And if you need to use it in a

 

Lora Cheadle [00:12:56]:

 

stressful instance, it’s there for you. That’s such good advice because especially for women, it’s so hard to say no. We want to be liked, we want to be loved, we want to be accepted.

 

Chris [00:13:07]:

 

We feel like a good woman serves other people. That’s right, but I’ll make this distinction. I actually share this in other talks that I give is I had another coach tell me that you need to take care of yourself so you can help take care of others. Note, I didn’t say take care of others. Help take care of others. Facilitate them. But if you don’t take care of yourself first, at some point in time, you’re gonna run out of energy. You’re gonna get resentful. You’re just, I mean, it’s just not gonna be a good thing because you’re giving from an empty cup. Right, and that’s just not gonna work. It’s not gonna work, not long-term.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:13:37]:

 

Okay, so talking about the power of saying no and verbally keeping yourself safe, Let’s go specifically to a domestic situation. I hate to even say that our intimate partner can hurt us, but our intimate partner can hurt us and quite often does hurt us. And I really appreciate that you work with the adrenal response because that is going to launch us into attack mode, launch us into freeze mode, do all sorts of things. So can you walk us through maybe a more traditional domestic situation

 

Chris [00:14:14]:

 

and show women how they can go from using their voice to maybe deescalate a situation. Yeah, great, great question. I think the first thing that’s so important, and you I’m sure have heard this several times before, is the importance of getting into the breath. Okay, so when we get into an adrenalized response, what will happen is we’ll begin shortness of breath. That’s 1 of the, you know, the byproducts of the adrenal response. We also have something called tunnel vision where we just focus, we can’t focus on anything but what’s in front of us. We get auditory exclusion, we lose small motor skill, And 1 of the best ways to do that is to anchor into our breath with a deep breath into through our nose and then a exhalation through our mouth almost like you’re blowing through a straw. Okay. So I know that that’s sometimes when it’s right there in front of us, It may be difficult to do, but if you had the ability, when you feel yourself getting you know, adrenalized is to just take those 3 deep breaths and inhale through the nose whole little bit, exhale through the mouth, hold a little bit. We call it box breathing, right? And so that we’re able to anchor ourselves. Okay. Yeah. The next thing that I would say is, is if you are in a domestic dispute, that starts verbally is don’t feel like you need to answer every question that’s coming toward you. All right. Because sometimes I’ve seen people get totally off because they’re trying to react to the to the shots that are coming at them, so to speak. But if you are just anchored and later on, we’re going to do some stuff on video. Right. So we’ll show people the self-defense stance because it’s showing non-verbally that there is strength, but just repeatedly saying things like, no, not now, you’re too close. I said no. And the way that I always explain it is we want them to be if if the person that is assailing them verbally comes in at level 3 you go to level 4 then if they go to level 5 you go to level 6 so you don’t want to be losing control you want to be in control but you wanted to be in an empowered state, right? So kind of stair steps. And I think that many times people who are abused, and there are different levels of abuse, right? Some of the worst abuses is sometimes verbal and emotional abuse, right? But in What what people have done who are emotionally abused. This is not a judgment just just true we’ve condition people to treat us in the ways they treat us. We talk to him how to do it and now we’re changing the script we have an opportunity to set that new boundary. And I think that many times it can be 1 of the more shocking things if someone who’s assailing someone verbally to go, whoa, okay, they’re kind of standing their ground here. And the other thing too, is it brings a sense of empowerment to the person saying it, which then will show in their body physiology, et cetera. And they’re not as, you know, and I’m not saying that will always happen. It’s a perfect world. But I think sometimes people have never even found their voice. I think that is so true.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:17:17]:

 

I think it’s really interesting also what you were saying about stair stepping up. I Think some listeners might be thinking but Chris isn’t that escalating the situation?

 

Chris [00:17:29]:

 

No, what I’m saying Is is when as they escalate the situation you just wrap it up 1 notch further I’m what I’m not advocating is that they come in at level 3 and you come blasting at level 10 Yes, I’m just saying that you’re still in control. You’re in your breath. You’re anchored. Yeah, you’re good you’re in a good solid physical way of expressing yourself and verbally, and it’s constant too. It’s like when we teach our courses and we’re teaching people to react verbally, it’s not long sentences. It’s short, direct, assertive languaging. That’s what we want to be expressing. I appreciate that so much because

 

Lora Cheadle [00:18:10]:

 

the short, assertive, direct languaging of no, not now, back away, is not what I think so many people do. It turns into this panicky screechy, you can’t do it, we’re not gonna do it, we’re not gonna do it, stop doing it. And then pretty soon there’s no control within you. And I think the person assailing you has… Well, see now, if they get you to that point, they’re now in control.

 

Chris [00:18:39]:

 

Because you’re being emotional, you’re kind of lost, but if you’re direct, focused, and in your power, maybe they’ve never seen that side of you.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:18:49]:

 

Yeah. Now, what about when you’re protecting maybe small children at home as well?

 

Chris [00:18:54]:

 

Yeah. Well, these are tough questions, Lora. Thank you. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think the first thing we as adults, is we always have that responsibility is that as a paramount, right? And I know that sometimes, I mean, I’m just thinking of even in my own background, when my father, who at times could be a very abusive alcoholic verbally, not so much physically, but verbally, and is to understand that when 2 things is that we were allowing our kids to be in that environment. What we’re doing is we’re basically teaching them that it’s okay to receive that themselves someday. And if they’re watching you receive it in that way without any assertive pushback, you’re once again reinforcing. And then when they go and they find mates and whatever, they’ll probably going to find someone who stays in that same role, right? That they’ve been. So obviously the best thing would be is not to have the kids there, but if they are there, is to make sure they’re in a safe place. And if you are presenting yourself, I would say to do it in the most empowered way possible. And if you at all feel there’s a physical threat, is to get out the best way you can. The other thing too is, don’t think that you have to do this all yourself. So if you have people in your circle that you know that can be supportive of you, reach out to those people, reach out to those people. I think there’s so many of our friends and family members that want to support us, but we think we have to do it all ourselves. And knowing that you’ve got someone who has your back and it can be there for you if you’re in difficult times, I think it’s really important. You don’t have to you have to do it solo. Yeah, thank you for that. I think that’s I think sometimes I think I had another coach tell me years ago, he said, something to the extent of is that, that vulnerability and in that regard of asking for help is 1 of the, it’s 1 is 100% strength comes from 100% vulnerability. Okay, so by being able to say I need help in this, do you have me? Boy, it’s just people will respond to that’s just been my experience. Yeah.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:21:01]:

 

What I’m hearing in your words, and I just want to bring to the surface is there’s a difference between strength and aggression. Yes, there’s a difference between vulnerability and weakness. And I think in our society often we see either aggression or weakness, and it’s really hard to shift our thinking. It is. Yeah, 1

 

Chris [00:21:24]:

 

of my favorite books, I’m trying to think of the author’s name right now, it’s called Power Versus Force. Yes. And it’ll come to my mind, the author here in a moment, but there is a distinction between trying to force ourselves and being aggressive. When we teach our classes, we create the distinction between passivity, aggression, and then being assertive. What we’re talking about is being assertive. We’re not talking about losing control, we’re not talking about getting off of the deep end in terms of screeching and some, we’re talking about very strong languaging and strong body communication. And that’s power. It is. And that’s power that not only is in those situations, but it works hand in hand with how you walk in life. So when you become empowered, you walk stronger in life. And when you walk stronger in life, you become more empowered in those situations, or you don’t even attract them.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:22:15]:

 

That’s the key right there. That is the key because something that I hear from my women a lot is

 

Chris [00:22:21]:

 

Why do I keep attracting the same stuff? Yeah, I don’t mean to be glib when I say this But I want to use this as an example You have this situation in this relationship and then you had the situation in this relationship and all of a sudden you realize that the person you’ve been in relationship to or married to is like the same person right but the 1 thing we have to know is there’s 1 common denominator you were there yeah So what can you do to make that change? It’s not about going outside and finding someone that makes you feel safer or makes you feel more secure. It’s about feeling that way inside yourself first. And when you can do that, then you’re going to attract the person that reflects that back to you.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:23:03]:

 

And I like how you preface that because it is hard. It is very hard. Yeah, and I don’t know about you, but I know there’s times where I look in the mirror and I think, oh, now I see it. And there’s embarrassment, there’s shame, but you know, that’s life.

 

Chris [00:23:20]:

 

It is totally life. And you’ve heard us say it in our seminars. It’s like when we have people go through our workshops and then we’re like, okay, I know you may have had situations where you maybe didn’t handle it that well in the past, let that go, because you don’t know what you know now. Right? Right, it doesn’t, you’re not gonna, bringing any of those feelings of shame and guilt or whatever are not gonna serve you. Just go from where you’re at and go forward, but know that everything starts with us. Everything starts with us. So if you want to feel more empowered, in my talks I often talk about this idea of many times we look at life from a perspective of have to be. When I have a secure relationship, then I’ll do the things I want to do and I’ll be happy. But that doesn’t work out that way. You want to turn the words around to be, do have, I need to be empowered. I need to be assertive. I need to be, then do the things that an assertive person would do. Then you can have your happiness and safety and security.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:24:19]:

 

I love that. And I love how you say that because that’s the root of so much self-development

 

Chris [00:24:26]:

 

or coaching or anything. Exactly. And that’s why I don’t like using the word victim Because if we feel that we are a victim, then we think we don’t have a choice. We’re out of choice. We’re out of power and empowerment. We always are a choice. Not to say they’re easy choices. No, that’s

 

Lora Cheadle [00:24:43]:

 

always a choice. Yeah. And I love that because I always make the distinction with my people. You were victimized. Yes. You’re not a victim. That’s right. Exactly. A hundred percent. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So a that awareness, awareness, externally awareness internally.

 

Chris [00:25:01]:

 

Now let’s move on to B. Yeah. Boundaries boundaries. Well, we’ve already kind of spoken a little bit about it, but the first thing, let’s just talk about physical boundaries. There are so many instances in our lives where we are not aware of our physical awareness. We talked about that. And that we allow people to move into situations around us physically where we just allow it because we just feel uncomfortable, we don’t wanna be rude, whatever. But our physical boundary, whatever feels comfortable for us is our boundary. Yes. And it’s something that we need to establish and we need to hold to. From a practical standpoint, we always say if you’re feeling a little bit uneasy with someone, you need to make sure that you are at least 2 of their steps distance from them. Because if you’re within 1 step of them, they can engage very quickly, very easily. But you want to have that physical boundary. But then, you know, that we’re talking about boundaries in terms of just the conversations that you have. If there are things that are inappropriate that are being said, it’s to stop it. And again, from a standpoint of assertiveness, hey, that does not make me, I’m uncomfortable when you say that, please stop. And there’s a whole different realm of just screeching at someone saying, don’t talk to me that way anymore. But What most of us do is we deal on the edges of extremes. We either say nothing or we go off the deep end. It’s about, this is the boundary here, this cannot be crossed. And I’m sorry, I won’t accept that. It’s easier said than done, but when we practice it, pretty soon It becomes very natural for us to do. Yeah.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:26:35]:

 

We could just talk all day about this because there’s boundaries in so many different areas. And I want to go back to the way you said that makes me very uncomfortable. Please stop. It’s so different than you can’t treat me that way. You can’t talk to me that way.

 

Chris [00:26:52]:

 

You can’t watch me. This may be a bad analogy. But if any of you had siblings when you’re growing up, and the big brother and big sister was kind of picking on the little brother or sister, and got him to the point where stop it now But well the big brother or big sister they knew they’re in control at that point, right? Yeah, but if you’re just like making direct eye contact Speaking to them and saying this is not okay. Please stop. I said no. It’s a whole different energy. It is a whole different energy. It is. It’s funny,

 

Lora Cheadle [00:27:23]:

 

because I also think about dog training. For anybody who has trained dogs. It’s a 1 word command. It’s sit, it’s stay. It’s calm. It’s not, will you please come over here? That’s right, exactly.

 

Chris [00:27:35]:

 

Well, I know you probably have heard me tell this story before, but this is years ago. I was on a trip with a group of martial arts instructors down in Alabama. We were gonna be doing a house build, a Habitat for Humanity. And before we got to our final destination We were overnight at a hotel and I’m sitting in my hotel room middle of the day. I want to get outside So I go outside I got my book in my water bottle and I’m walking and I’m in this neighborhood and as I’m in this neighborhood, I notice it’s not the best of neighborhoods. But I’m like, you know, I know how to protect myself, whatever. So I’m walking to the neighborhood. All of a sudden, over this like little hill appears this Rottweiler and she’s barking at me, right? And I can tell she’s been nursing, so she’s very protective. So I’d always heard, don’t engage with the dog, turn around, walk away. So I start walking away. Well, I hear her closing in on me. So I start walking a little faster, a little faster. The next thing I know is I feel my pant leg, and she’s got it. And I turn around thinking I’m gonna throw down with this dog, right? Right. And then it hit me. I teach this. So I got big, I got put in my self-defense stance, and I said, no, bad dog, bad dog! And she reared back and ran away. Isn’t that funny? And I went to the hotel. My son was there. He was traveling with me. I told him about it. He said, of course, dad, it was a Chihuahua. I said, no, it was a Chihuahua. But the fact of the matter is, what came present for me is that dog’s reaction to me is the same way humans would react. He was still the predator to prey and I flipped the script using my voice. And why is it so hard for us to use our voice sometimes? Well I’ll tell you this, I think that so much of it is conditioned and you know good children are seen they’re not heard kind of thing and I think it’s even more culturized in women because boys are allowed to be rambunctious and whatever a girl. And I think that 1 of the greatest gifts we can give our kids is being able to help them understand their voice and the appropriate ways to use them. Yeah.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:29:42]:

 

Yeah. So if you’ve got kids, I want you to think about that for you as well as for your kids, because it’s my guess that the reason you’re listening to the show is because you’re in a contentious situation and things are not good. And yes, you need to speak up for yourself and you need to speak up for your kids. And like Chris said earlier,

 

Chris [00:30:02]:

 

kids learn by example. They sure do. Much, much more than anything you’re going to say to them. And you know, I think, I think of all the lessons, both good and bad, that I even personally got from my parents, right? Oh, totally. We all have. And you know, and how many times have we, you know, oh my, I’ll never do that. And all of a sudden you’re talking to your child and you’re like, oh my God, I’m my mother right now. So it’s just, it’s just something that happens naturally. So it’s about stepping back, being conscious, Not feeling guilty about it, but just making a change and moving forward. Yeah.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:30:34]:

 

Yeah. Okay. So on the boundaries and you know what, before we go there, another reminder, Chris and I are filming some stuff right after. So we will show you the 2 steps away and what that looks like. Okay. So on the boundaries, you are with an intimate partner. Maybe they’ve had disclosure and maybe you’re still living together because you are not sure if you’re going to stay together. Maybe you’ve committed to staying together, whatever, but things are feeling weird. But they’re your partner and you’re sitting together on the couch and you’re feeling uncomfortable. But how do you broach that without wrecking things?

 

Chris [00:31:12]:

 

Yeah. Wow. You didn’t tell me there were going to be this many difficult questions. You know, I think the first thing is is that those agreements and those things to talk about them are done not when you are in the heat of the discussion. They’re done when you are away from that and you’re able to have that discussion and you’ve either agreed to what’s going to happen if you feel uncomfortable beforehand or you’ve already and or you have in your mind what you’re going to do if that occurs. So you know it’s about open communication. I know that I mean I’m obviously speaking from a men’s perspective versus woman’s perspective. So I want your listeners to know that I appreciate that. All I’m saying is just from a standpoint of if you’re dealing with a man, it’s my own opinion who you really want to be with long-term and it’s healthy for you to be with long-term when he when you give him those boundaries he needs to be accepting of those and if he’s not it’s time to maybe look at another strategy or another another relationship that’s just my own personal opinion And I think the same thing goes for young girls as they’re dating. If they’re seeing men who are treating them, or young boys that are treating them not respectfully, it’s like, whew, don’t think you’re gonna change someone. You need to be, but again, to my point, is having those conversations beforehand, and not in the heat of it because then it’s like, whoa, it’s always happened before. Why can’t it happen? No. Remember when we had that conversation? I’m triggered right now. I need you to be appreciative of that. I need you to listen to me. And yeah, I guess that’s the 1 thing that would come present for me. Don’t be reactive in that situation. Be proactive with what you need beforehand.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:32:58]:

 

Yes, I appreciate that because I know in my own betrayal recovery journey, that was something that we need to have some bounds in talking about the affair. We can’t just talk about it 24 7. I can’t just spring it on you because I have a fear. You can’t just push me away and saying, we have to have some rules around this because otherwise we are going to be in each other’s faces and there’s not going to be any psychological safety and there’s going to be no emotional boundaries. And I hate to say it, I was not hit, I was not abused physically, But I know a lot of people are and that that’s also a fear too that I will physically shove you away or I will.

 

Chris [00:33:37]:

 

And yeah, got to talk about it. Well, yeah, you have to because what ends up happening is when the situations get heated now, neither 1 of you are dealing with a consciousness that’s going to bring a good result. You’re both reacting. You’re not responding to a situation, you’re reacting to a situation. And having things you’re going to say and having agreements before that happens, then you can default to it, right? It’s like, oh, remember what we talked about? Or this is what I’m going to say. We’re just trying to make it up when you’re in a generalized place. Yeah, absolutely.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:34:09]:

 

And then like that, hopefully 1 person at least will be calm enough to say, no, I need to back away. I need to go take a walk. I need 20 minutes.

 

Chris [00:34:20]:

 

Now is not the time. And also make it about what I need in that situation, not what you’re doing. Great point. Because then a defensiveness can come up and, you know, when you say this, blah, blah. No, right now I’m feeling this way. Or when you say this, I feel this way. And now I need to take some time away versus you always do this you always say this and because then it becomes personal and then it’s just gonna be who’s gonna love the next grenade right it’s just not gonna be healthy no no not at all

 

Lora Cheadle [00:34:50]:

 

And then that’s more in that interpersonal realm. Going forward, people might wanna date. There’s a lot of dating apps. You don’t really know the people you’re meeting. Can you talk about some safety boundaries when you’re first meeting somebody or how to meet people or when to meet people? Absolutely. Well, the first 1 is pretty commonsensical, but we always recommend that people will meet

 

Chris [00:35:15]:

 

their potential date or even a business associate real estate agents have this as well and meet them in a public place. Yeah. Okay. Pretty commonsensical. Make sure that you have a buddy that knows where you’re at at all times and that you’re able to access quickly. Sometimes we will even say is to have some type of a code word if things are going a little bit off-center, right? So in the case when I do this training for real estate agents, it might be, Oh, let me call my assistant. Um, hello, Mary. Yes. I need the red file. Okay. The red file means I’m in trouble. Right. Right. So something that’s a little bit disguised so that you’re not, you know, showing your whole hand, but at the same time, something’s happening there. Be very clear as well about where you are posting your whereabouts. Social media is great, can also be really, really difficult in terms of making us vulnerable about where we’re at. We’re on vacation, we’re in this place right now. It’s just so, so important. And then the final thing, the final thing is listen to your intuition. If you are feeling in a situation that it just doesn’t feel right, this guy’s giving you the heebie-jeebies, bow out gracefully. Don’t think, oh, I can’t listen to that because I can guarantee you all the people that have come to me throughout the years I’ve heard multiple stories of people saying I knew I shouldn’t have been there, but I didn’t want to insult anyone Excuse my language. I didn’t want to be a bitch So I didn’t leave and it turned out bad. Yep. So listen to your intuition. I so appreciate that. And listen to where it is in your body. So our bodies are constantly speaking to us. Many times when we get adrenalized, we’ll feel it in our chest. We’ll feel it in our, in our stomach of some sort. And what we oftentimes do is we push it down and we probably all been in instances where, oh, I shouldn’t go there. I shouldn’t do this. And we did, and it didn’t turn out well. Yes. Listen to yourself. Yes. And I tell the same thing to kids when I do this training. Yeah. Listen to it. Yeah. I know same thing every time I’ve pushed it down something happens and then I want to kick my that’s right. That’s

 

Lora Cheadle [00:37:27]:

 

right. Yeah, it’s the head and the heart the head Great. I like being in my head, but I’ve got to stay in my house. Right. Yeah.

 

Chris [00:37:34]:

 

Particularly if you are not choosing not to do something because you think you’re going to make someone else feel bad.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:37:42]:

 

Yes. Yes.

 

Chris [00:37:43]:

 

Yeah. I always I tell this when I when I when I when I do this training, not only with adults, but particularly with teenage girls is, is if you are dating or you’re on a first date with a young man who wouldn’t honor that, you don’t want to be with that guy long term anyway. Because it’s just going to get worse. No, you don’t. Okay. Here’s it. Here’s another tough question that

 

Lora Cheadle [00:38:09]:

 

there is the difference between manipulation and manipulating somebody else and saying what you don’t mean and testing people and a real true that is against my core values.

 

Chris [00:38:23]:

 

Yeah.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:38:24]:

 

Sometimes that’s hard to know and I think especially especially women maybe just speaking for myself I don’t want to seem like I’m manipulating. I don’t want to seem like I’m weak I don’t like I don’t want to be seen like that sure and there’s sometimes that tension between How do I know when it’s really me? How do I know if I’m manipulating somebody else?

 

Chris [00:38:45]:

 

Do you know what I’m saying? I do. And I think that manipulation is definitely a survival tactic, right? It’s 1 that we do both as men and as women in order to deal with situations that we’re not certainly assured of or comfortable with. My sense would be is to be as honest as possible when we’re in those situations. And I know that might sound a little bit of cliche, but if you like something, say it. If you don’t like something, say it. I think that sometimes what a man from my experience is what? Men like to not only they don’t like to hear when they’re not doing well But they also like to hear when they’re doing things that are good Yes, and that’s okay, too is to be able to share. You know what when you said that I really enjoy that. Thank you Yeah I acknowledge that Because I think there’s a manipulation on the other side that if you don’t, and you’ve got people trying to be reactive, but then when things are said and done that you’re not, then be honest with them there. And again, do it in such a way where it is about the action and not about the person. When you do this, it makes me feel this way. I would appreciate it if you not do that anymore. It was about the act. It wasn’t about Why are you such a jerk because you always say this to me now it becomes personal he gets defensive now you’re in this Contest I’m not saying it always works, but my experience as many times it does because it neutralizes the situation It’s not about them It’s about the act And I think that many times men who act out, they’re doing it from a strong sense of insecurity anyway. So if they feel now they’re on the defensive, they’re going to go into attack mode where if you’re saying, Hey, This is what’s going on. Hey, and again, remind them when they’ve done something. Well, hey, you do this really well. When you do this, I really love it. Can I share with you something that I’m a little bit uncomfortable with, right? And then when they when they make those behavioral changes, make sure you remind them. Thanks for doing that. Yeah. Men like to hear that. Just talking as a man. Oh yeah. Oh, I appreciate that so much. So much, especially because most of the listeners in my show, it’s not about

 

Lora Cheadle [00:40:58]:

 

he did this to me and Most of the people who are listening want to elevate as humans. If they have kids, whether they’re together or not, they’re gonna be co-parenting forever. It’s about finding the common ground, finding their strength, finding their power, and learning how to communicate and make things better for everyone.

 

Chris [00:41:15]:

 

Amen, and I said this before, and I went through this with my own divorce, separation and divorce, is your children, whatever your role modeling in either in marriage and relationship or in divorce is something that they’re going to most likely replicate because that’s just been role modeled. And I just know that when, when I separated from my wife who we’d been together at that point in time for 26 years, both of us had set an agreement with each other that we would not use the boys, we have 2 sons together, as a medium of our communication or of any way of dealing with difficulties and challenges we have with 1 another. And I’m really proud that we both stuck to that. And I think as a result of that, our boys had a pretty healthy, it was a painful experience of course. But it was a healthy experience in terms of how we both dealt with it. Right, because conflict is inevitable.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:42:15]:

 

It’s internal, it’s external, it’s everywhere all the time. It’s how do we deal with it? Right, and weaponizing our kids in that situation is not healthy

 

Chris [00:42:24]:

 

for your relationship, but it’s definitely not healthy for them. So if everything inside of you wants to just like lash out at somebody, stop and go, what’s this gonna do for my kids that might be 1 of the best check-ins

 

Lora Cheadle [00:42:37]:

 

is that what I want to role model for my son and for my daughter and what’s it gonna do for me right that was a big 1 like in my situation I had it’s embarrassing to say but I had so many friends be like, are you gonna revenge cheat? And I’d be like, why? Why would I do the no? That’s not who I am. How is that gonna help me? No doubt. And same thing, how is attacking somebody else gonna help me? Exactly. And you know, this is maybe another

 

Chris [00:43:04]:

 

whole topic, but that area of forgiveness and it’s not necessarily saying that the act was right. You’re not doing that, but you’re just accepting that’s what happened and you’re forgiving yourself for the judgment about it. And that’s where the freedom is. That’s where the freedom is. And it’s hard. Trust me. I mean, I shared with you earlier that my marriage ended, the catalyst for it was infidelity on my wife’s part. And was by far the most traumatic and painful time of my life I say that having had lost a brother when I was 17, so a death in my family that Situation just rocked my world. Yeah And I look back at it now and it’s going 18 years ago that that occurred. I’m so much better of a person now because I chose to look and I’m not saying I got it all worked out, But versus if I would have been angry, manipulative, trying to be in a retributive mode, et cetera, it would have just damaged me.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:44:11]:

 

I know it would have. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And that as well was a turning point for me. I was, I mean, awful, completely shattered, broken.

 

Chris [00:44:21]:

 

And I thought, it’s my choice if I let this ruin me or if I let this launch me into something greater. And I’m choosing to launch myself into something greater. That’s how I looked at it too. And it wasn’t an easy thing. And man, I have to look back at some of the ways that I showed up and some of the things that I said. I mean, if you could fog a mirror, I would tell you my story during that time. Right. I was just, just projecting all my pain on whoever would listen. And I’ve realized now, you know, that I played a role in that. Of course. You know, and that was a healthy realization for me. And now when I look back at that situation, I look where she’s at now, God bless her, and where I’m at, we wouldn’t be compatible right now. It’s because of who the person I became as a result of that. Yeah. Not even mentioning what’s going on with her, but just I know I couldn’t do that. Yeah, exactly. And like that, that’s what it’s all about.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:45:14]:

 

Becoming more. That’s right. Yeah, and part of that is we need to protect ourselves We need to stay safe and at the same time capable of growth That’s right constant balance exactly and you know, I know that we’ve been talking a lot of man-on-woman

 

Chris [00:45:29]:

 

Aggression etc, etc. But what I realized through my experience with infidelity and then divorce and then recovery from that is I, as a man had advocated a lot of my power in the relationship. I had like given so much of it away. And So I came out of the other end going, whoa, I was totally unconscious to it because I thought it was the right thing to do. And I think I’ve ended up in becoming a much more powerful individuated person as a result of that experience.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:45:59]:

 

And here’s what I love about that too. Some of my listeners who want to work it out with our partner go in with the belief that now he screwed it all up. So now I have all the power. And it’s like, oh, you’re weaponizing it.

 

Chris [00:46:19]:

 

Weaponizing it. And that’s that that might work well in the short term and in terms of shutting down an argument But over time it is so corrosive and cancerous to a relationship It’s it’s not going to survive and you know as I said before You know, I’ll speak from man’s family. We like to find out when we’re doing well You know and if you’re in that combative relationship and he’s not getting any positive reinforcement Chances of him probably repeating that behavior are going to be high as well. So it’s a it’s a slippery slope there. And I understand anger and hurt and whatever. And it’s healthy to get that out. But I would say, please don’t weaponize it. It’s not going to be good for anyone. Yeah. Because The thing is, we’re talking about boundaries. Everybody needs boundaries on both sides of the relationships.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:47:05]:

 

And if that’s incompatible, it could be. It could be, absolutely,

 

Chris [00:47:11]:

 

absolutely. Yeah,

 

Lora Cheadle [00:47:12]:

 

and then moving to the C, and we’re gonna do a lot of this in the video demonstration, but I wanna hear more about, you know, combatives and if and when you go there both in an intimate relationship and then with, yeah, let’s talk about that. Absolutely. Well, First and foremost,

 

Chris [00:47:32]:

 

if you can avoid a physical confrontation, please do so at any cost. It’s a last resort. I always say that the best way of dealing with that physical situation is the most powerful martial art on the planet. It’s not karate. It’s not Taekwondo. It’s not Krav Maga. It’s run Fu. Right. So if you can be out of the situation, take that. However, if in fact, it is a point you’re, your back is up against the wall. There’s no other place to do it. Know that in a physical confrontation, it’s about 90% attitude and 10% where to hit him and what to do. Okay? It’s not, as you’ve taken in our course, you know, we don’t spend a lot of time doing all these fancy moves, etc Because those are all gonna go out the window when you’re adrenalized It’s about having some core moves to vulnerable parts of the body But it’s about fighting until 10 minutes after you’re dead. Does that make sense? It’s just like you will not be taken down. And the vulnerable areas of the body, which we’ll go over in a moment, I mean, certainly the eyes and the face, particularly around the nose and the chin, and We’ll be dealing with what the heel palm later on. I’m going to show that in the demo. And then the knee strike to the groin. Those are the 2 areas that we focus on. But it is about a fighting spirit. It is about a fighting spirit that says, I will not be dominated. I will not be injured. I will not be hurt. I will protect myself and have that as your attitude and that is going to take you further than anything else, I believe. Right. And, you know, I think when we, what’s so neat about learning the physical combatives and self defenses, and I mentioned this before, is they play off of each other. So when you have an adeptness and an understanding of how to carry yourself physically, you’ll now show more confidence in the way that you’re out in the world. And as a result of that, you’ll be less of a target. Right? So it works in this beautiful circle. I use this example a lot. When I had my martial arts school, I used to teach a lot of kids, which I love teaching kids. And many times I would have parents come and bring their child because he or she was being bullied. And 1 of the first things we do is we taught when they’re into a lesson, we talk about body posture, looking in their eye and making a handshake, a polite greeting, et cetera. And so I would invariably always check in about 4 to 6 weeks later, how are things going? How are things happening, being bullied? And I can’t tell you how many times, Lora, I would have the child tell me, I don’t get bullied anymore. Yeah. Well, what happened? He didn’t punch the bully in the nose. He didn’t kick him in the, he didn’t do anything. He was standing with more assertiveness. His shoulders were back, his chin was up. He was making eye contact. He wasn’t

 

Lora Cheadle [00:50:30]:

 

acting as a target or a victim. Yeah, because you had said something similar earlier about self-esteem, self-confidence. Bullies are the ones that have no self-esteem, self-love.

 

Chris [00:50:43]:

 

See, I literally just on Friday night, I taught a kid’s self-defense class, similar to what you did, but appropriate for kids. And we talk about what bullies look like and it’s interesting, you know at that age from you know, 6 to 10 there Oh, they’re big. They’re hairy. They were black. They have bad teeth. Well, no bullies are like anybody, right? They look like anyone but I always tell them I say Bullies didn’t come out of their moms going. Wham. I’m a bully. Yeah bullies bully because they were bullied, too Yeah, and most of the time they’re doing it because they are feeling insecure They’re feeling bad about themselves and they think they’ll feel better and they do for a short period of time For a short period of time, but then it doesn’t last then they’re off to the next person And so it’s not to it’s not to advocate their behavior and it’s not to say it’s justified It’s just say understand. There’s another reason they’re doing it. And if you know that they’re not as big and bad as they were before. No. Yeah. And you’re right, then it’s that attitude.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:51:40]:

 

I do know some skills, I do know some, so it’s fine. And I would say in a

 

Chris [00:51:46]:

 

romantic relationship, it’s the same way that when men are doing that or women are doing it to their partner, it is a projection of the pain that they’re holding inside of themselves. It doesn’t mean that the actions are appropriate or justified or right, just know that’s the source. That’s a hurt people, hurt people, right? 1 of my favorite phrases.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:52:08]:

 

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I like that because just by having the confidence then sometimes that I do know where to hit, how to hit, it’s going to be okay.

 

Chris [00:52:19]:

 

You are a little bit less likely, or maybe a lot less likely to be victimized. That’s right, that’s right. You think about, you know, the bobcat up in the mountains and he’s hungry, he wants lunch. Is he gonna go for the big 12 point buck who’s walking majestically through the woods or the little rabbit that’s limping, right? Because most people who are looking to victimize someone else are not looking for a fight. They’re looking for a victim. It’s just, It’s just, it’s the way of the world. Yeah.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:52:47]:

 

So even like that at home,

 

Chris [00:52:49]:

 

you can leave. Yes. You can leave. Yes. And have that thought out ahead of time. What is your plan? What is, what would that look like? Don’t do it when you’re in that frenzied state and you’re trying to chase, you know, run for your life, whatever, is have things, you know, if when people are expecting a baby, yes, they’ve got like the baby bag, right? Yes. Have something like that where you’re ready to move when you need to quickly and assertively and you’ve got your plan worked out and it’s there because in that emotional state you’re not going to be able to think clearly. But if you have a plan of action you’ll be able to follow that. Yeah

 

Lora Cheadle [00:53:27]:

 

so people are at home maybe there’s an infidelity disclosure, things got wonky, somebody strikes, things start, how would you recommend, and I know it’s all case-specific, but if things start getting physical, what should somebody do?

 

Chris [00:53:43]:

 

Are you saying it’s someone who’s being victimizing and being beaten? Is that what you’re saying? Um,

 

Lora Cheadle [00:53:48]:

 

maybe a relationship that did not have domestic abuse. Yeah. But all of a sudden there’s a disclosure. And in that moment of rage, somebody hits and somebody hits back or somebody shoves or somebody… Yeah.

 

Chris [00:54:00]:

 

Well, the best thing in terms of trying to disfuse a situation like that is to create space, both physical space, but also emotional space. As we said before, is to get in your, get in your breath as best you can, Man, I can, it was almost 20 years ago. I still remember when I had that conversation. Yeah. Right. Just how painful it was. Now my reaction wasn’t to act out. My reaction was denial. Of course. I couldn’t believe it is happening. Right. But the best thing is, is to get into breath and get to a point where you can respond and not react. And if you feel I’ve been to the place where I’ve seen red, okay, and I’ll just share this story too. I was literally sharing this with a friend the other night. My wife, the end of our relationship, the catalyst was her infidelity. Later on, she became married and they’re still together. So God bless them, right? Right. Well, I had thought I’d done a lot of work on that situation. And I had met him, I had just seen pictures and heard about him, and we were already divorced and they were dating and they eventually got married. And they came into town for our youngest son’s high school graduation, and they landed in DIA, came in from Hawaii, and my former wife called me and said, hey, we got in town a little early. Can we come by and see our oldest, our youngest son? Said, sure. I’m thinking I got this all covered, done all my forgiveness work, I’m all set. So they come to the door. I answered the door and I see him there and I see red

 

Speaker A [00:55:35]:

 

and

 

Chris Natzke D [00:55:36]:

 

I see myself side kicking him in the throat. You’re like in 1 of those movies and then all of a sudden boom I come out of it and now I can’t speak. I’m so flustered. And I remember they left and my son said, Dad, what happened? You were so, you look so scared. Well, I was scared I was going to hit him. I was scared I was going to kill him. So I get it. I get where that, I mean, I had no idea where that came from. But if you are, if you do have a preponderance to that, if you’ve had that experience before, think it through, get into your breath, create situations that you can move away. And I know sometimes it’s thrown on us, we just react, whatever we can do to stop and create the space before you do something you regret. That’s I guess how I would answer that question. It’s not easy. It’s simple, not easy. Right. No, and thank you for sharing that because that is where it’s hard.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:56:30]:

 

Because even in my own situation, and I think some of my listeners who have listened for a while know this, I found out on the phone, he came at me to get the phone, I was not going to turn loose of his phone. And something clicked in me that I’m like, I’m going to fight till I die. And fortunately, I didn’t.

 

Chris Natzke [00:56:51]:

 

But that was that instinct. It is interesting, you know, that someone that we have held so beautifully in our hearts, and in a loving relationship can bring out that side of us that is so angry when we’re betrayed. It’s just a really interesting human condition because I had, oh my gosh, I mean, it was, I mean, so many emotions and in martial arts, we always teach self-control and man, I was like dealing with this inside myself. I just want to go kick some ass right? I get it. I get it. Right. It was not it was a it was it was being able to look at myself in a different way and accept that shadow part of myself. And once I was able to do that, then I was able to deal with it. But the more I resisted it, the more it just became ugly. Yeah. Yeah.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:57:38]:

 

Well, thank you so much. We are listeners. We’re going to close this show and we’re going to go into the video section. So absolutely, the link will be below. It will be on YouTube. It will be everywhere. But you’re not going to want to miss this because these are some of those basic skills that you will have so it can increase your confidence, so you will have better boundaries, so you’ll be more confident asserting yourself verbally, energetically, all of that stuff. So you never ever, ever get to the point, hopefully that you need to use any of these physical techniques. So stick with us. You will enjoy what’s to come and in the meantime, have a phenomenal week and always remember to flaunt exactly who you are, because who you are is always more than enough.

 

Narrator [00:58:27]:

 

Tune in next time to flaunt, find your sparkle and create a life you love after infidelity or betrayal. With radio host and live choreographer, Lora Cheadle, every Wednesday at 7 a.m. And 7 p.m. Eastern Time on syndicated Dream Vision 7 radio network. Develop naked self-worth and reclaim your confidence, enthusiasm, and joy so you