Johanna Lynn

Explore the intersection of betrayal recovery, inherited family trauma, and self-discovery in this powerful conversation with Lora Cheadle and Johanna Lynn. Together, they unpack how understanding the roots of inherited patterns can guide you toward freedom, healing, and thriving relationships.

Top Three Takeaways:
  1. Inherited Trauma: Learn how epigenetics influences behavior and how family patterns are unconsciously passed down through generations—and how to break free.
  2. Healing Narcissistic Dynamics: Understand the roots of narcissistic tendencies and discover how compassion and boundaries can coexist in relationships.
  3. Somatic Awareness: Discover the importance of staying embodied, how your body holds wisdom beyond your mind, and how tuning into sensations can transform emotional healing.

Resources Mentioned:

About Johanna:

Johanna Lynn, founder of The Family Imprint Institute supports you to break free from the invisible patterns holding you back in love. With 18 years of diving deep into family dynamics, she reveals why we repeat painful relationship cycles and how to finally heal. Johanna’s unique approach reveals the deeper “why” behind recurring challenges and transforms betrayal into an opportunity for profound personal growth.

About Lora:

Lora Cheadle is a betrayal recovery coach, attorney, and TEDx speaker who helps women heal from betrayal on an energetic, emotional, and ancestral level—while also providing legal guidance to help them navigate the practical complexities of infidelity and relationship transitions. She empowers women to rise from the ashes, reclaim their identity and self-worth, break free from repeating patterns, and step into their power with confidence, clarity, and grace.

After being shattered by her husband’s fifteen years of infidelity, Lora knows firsthand what it takes to transform devastation into an invitation for healing, freedom, and joy. Her unique approach blends deep emotional healing with tangible legal and life strategies, guiding women beyond betrayal into lives of unapologetic confidence and purpose.

As the founder of Life Choreography Coaching & Advocacy, Lora provides comprehensive legal, emotional, intellectual, and spiritual support on demand. She believes that infidelity doesn’t have to be the end of the dream you poured your heart and soul into—it can be the beginning of a life filled with sovereignty, connection, and joy.

Licensed to practice law in California and Colorado, Lora is also a trauma-aware coach, clinical hypnotherapist, somatic attachment therapist, and advanced integrated energy practitioner. She is certified in yoga, mindfulness, group fitness, and personal training, bringing a holistic perspective to healing.

She is the author of FLAUNT! Drop Your Cover and Reveal Your Smart, Sexy, & Spiritual Self (an International Book Awards Finalist and Tattered Cover Bestseller) and It’s Not Burnout, It’s Betrayal: 5 Tools to FUEL UP & Thrive. She also hosts the podcast FLAUNT! Create a Life You Love After Infidelity and Betrayal.

Based in Colorado, Lora is an adventure-seeker who loves travel, a great book, and saying yes to life’s magic.

Betrayal Recovery Tool Kit:

Find Relief, Reclaim Yourself, and Rewrite Your Story

Download your Betrayal Recovery Tool Kit at www.BetrayalRecoveryGuide.com and start reclaiming yourself and your life today!

 

 

Let’s connect! Share your thoughts or questions from this episode with Lora at loracheadle.com. New episodes every week.

Subscribe, like, share, and join Lora Cheadle on your journey to reclaim your sparkle and create a life you love.

Special Offers from Our Sponsors!

 

 

Thank you to BetterHelp for sponsoring this podcast! Take charge of your mental health and get 10% off your first month of therapy at https://BetterHelp.com/FLAUNT

 

 

Are you ready to Rise Up, Reclaim Your Story, & Reign as the Queen of your Life? Infidelity may have shaken your world, but it doesn’t define you. You are powerful. You are worthy. And you are capable of creating a future filled with confidence, clarity, and joy. I will walk by your side, giving you the perspective, permission, and wisdom to transform your betrayal into something profoundly empowering. Whether you work with me one-on-one or complete my Affair Recovery Programs from the privacy of your home, you’ll gain the tools to untangle yourself from the past, reclaim your power, and step boldly into your next chapter. Your healing starts now! Learn more at:

www.AffairRecoveryForWomen.com
Visit www.LoraCheadle.com for more resources & inspiration.

 

 

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FLAUNT!: Drop Your Cover and Reveal Your Smart, Sexy & Spiritual Self, author Lora Cheadle

 

  • International Book Award, Finalist Motivational Self-Help 2021
  • Tattered Cover Bestseller 2019

Are you tired of living a life dictated by others? What if you could break free and be who you are? If you’ve felt trapped by expectations and long to be free, FLAUNT! is the key to unlocking who you are, expressing yourself authentically, and choreographing your life your way.

Unleash the power within and embrace your true self with this transformative guide that empowers you to strip away societal expectations and discover your authentic, smart, sexy, and spiritual self. Through a unique blend of humor, wisdom, and actionable steps, you can uncover your deepest desires and build the confidence to live a life full of passion and purpose.

Buy Now on Amazon, or wherever books are sold.

 

 

 

It’s Not Burnout, It’s Betrayal: 5 Tools to FUEL UP & Thrive, is the essential guide for burnout and betrayal relief. Packed with insight and practical tools, this book is a must-have for individuals, teams, and leaders alike. Available on Amazon. Learn more at www.itsnotburnoutitsbetrayal.com

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Transcript

 

Lora Cheadle [00:00:01]:
You’re listening to Flaunt, find your sparkle and create a life you love after infidelity or betrayal. A podcast for women who’ve been betrayed by their intimate partner and want to turn their devastation into an invitation to reclaim them selves and their worth. Tune in weekly so you can start making sense of it all and learn how to be okay on the inside no matter what goes on on the outside. Download your free betrayal recovery toolkit at betrayalrecoveryguide.com.

Lora Cheadle [00:00:35]:
Whether you’ve been listening to the show for a while or this is one of your first times, what I want you to know is this. There is so much hope. There is so much possibility, and there is so much goodness and power and strength that can be created from this situation. And I know that not only because I am on the other side, and I am happier and more self confident and secure than I ever was before, but I have worked with so many of you who tell me the same thing. And that’s why I offer free consultations, because I know what’s possible for you, and I can hold that vision for you even when you can’t formulate that vision for your self. This is why I do what I do because when I was in your shoes, there was nobody there to do this. Yes. I have a therapist.

Lora Cheadle [00:01:35]:
My therapist helped me process things, but I needed somebody there who would hold me accountable, who could be my wise guide, who could give me the insight, who could, like, tell me and call me out on the things where I was gaslighting myself, when my partner was saying something that didn’t make sense. I needed that wise friend, that wise voice to coach me through and to help me make sense of all the things that I was learning in therapy, on podcasts, from all of the 10,000 books I think that I read to get through this. And that’s what I’m here for. I can get you to the other side. I can help you formulate that vision for yourself, for your life. And then I can hold loving space for you so you can get there. I can be your accountability partner. I can be that wise and loving voice.

Lora Cheadle [00:02:35]:
I can give you insight. I think more than anything, I am gonna speak truth to you. I’m gonna tell you when I think it sounds like gaslighting, either from somebody else or from yourself to yourself. Because what I really want is for you to rise up, for you to create the most beautiful life because of this. I really want you to be as happy as I am, as secure as I feel in myself and is in my life that, quite frankly, I never would have gotten here if it wasn’t for the infidelity. So reach out 30 minutes free. Just me, just you, just talking so you can see what it’s like to truly have somebody walk by your side and whisper in your ear every step of the way, guiding you to exactly where you want to be. Go to my website, loracheadle.com.

Lora Cheadle [00:03:41]:
That’s loracheadle.com. And you can book your appointment right there from my website, lordcheedle.com. Again, just me, just you, whispering in your ear, walking by your side, holding you accountable, giving you that wisdom and that guidance, and most importantly, the love and the support that you deserve and that you need in order to get through this situation and become who you really want to become at the end of the day. So lauracheedle.com, and I really look forward to seeing you. Hello, and welcome to Flaunt. Find your sparkle and create a life you love after infidelity or betrayal. Today, we are gonna talk about something that I know is on so many of your minds. And that’s the idea of, is my partner a narcissist? Oh, my gosh.

Lora Cheadle [00:04:38]:
Can we get through this? Is he a narcissist? And then going a little bit deeper. Why is he a narcissist? Is this nature? Is this nurture? What can I expect? What can I do? How do I trust this? My guest today is Johanna Lynn, and she is a therapist and expert in epigenetics. And we’re gonna really unpack this whole thing for you. So in case you’re thinking, I don’t know what epigenetics are. No worries. We got you covered. We are going to take care of everything. So welcome to the show.

Lora Cheadle [00:05:12]:
I’m so glad you were with us today.

Johanna Lynn [00:05:14]:
Oh, it’s great to be here with you, Lora.

Lora Cheadle [00:05:17]:
So let’s start kind of from the beginning. What is epigenetics? What what does that even mean? And what does that why does that matter?

Johanna Lynn [00:05:25]:
Yeah. Oh, it matters so deeply. So epigenetics is almost like the blueprint that we’re born with. We now have an understanding that we are not just this individual self. We are really half our mom and half our dad. When you think about that biologically, chromosomeally, we come in with many of their imprints. So things that were unresolved in their life, that could include traumas, broken hearts, that can include perceptions and thoughts, We’re sort of we come through and we share an operating system with our parents. And so a lot of the times we think, well, this is just the way I love, this is just the way relationships go, and it’s got a bit of a deeper meaning than that.

Johanna Lynn [00:06:10]:
And so, really, that’s what relational epigenetics is all about. We’re kinda born with a bit of a mold, and we get to choose if that serves us or if it’s kinda holding us back and keeping us stuck in painful patterns.

Lora Cheadle [00:06:23]:
Yeah. And I really wanna go deeper on that, what you just said. It serves as a mold, but we get to choose. Because I can think of so many listeners being like, my father-in-law is a total jerk. My mother-in-law is absolutely crazy. That means my partner, there’s no hope. So let’s talk about the mold versus the choice and how that might play out.

Johanna Lynn [00:06:48]:
Oh, thank goodness there’s a choice. You know? And it’s more about how much of my choices, how much of my moods, how much of my life is really how I want it to be. Am I in reaction to, or am I in this place of choosing? And so as a child, of course, we don’t know we’re in a mold. We don’t know we have a choice. We don’t know we can hold a boundary, and this is really a part of emotional maturing. This is really a part about growing into ourselves, and we get to decide, you know what? This repetitive step place we get into in our couple, I don’t wanna do that to this person. I don’t wanna feel like this. And so it does require us to look at where we’ve both come from and how we’re playing it out together.

Johanna Lynn [00:07:34]:
And so sometimes when we have that difficult in law like you’re talking about, let’s let it open up more compassion for our partner. Oh, that’s why this happens. Okay. Let’s kinda unpack and understand where the where the starting point of a lot of this comes from.

Lora Cheadle [00:07:52]:
Yeah. Okay. So tactically speaking, so many of the listeners here well, all of the listeners here have experienced infidelity in their marriage, in their relationship. And I know as somebody who has gone through it, one of the first reactions is to point the finger. You did this to me. I was perfect. I was the perfect wife. I was the perfect mom.

Lora Cheadle [00:08:20]:
I understand relationships. You are messed up. You’re a narcissist. You’re doing this. And it’s really hard to kinda have some compassion, first of all. But then second of all, to stop pointing the finger. I see this. You need to fix it.

Lora Cheadle [00:08:37]:
I see this. You need to fix this. Oh, my gosh. This is you. You you you you you you. Mhmm. So tactically speaking, do you have any advice or insight on how to own your part, maybe have clarity that you see what’s going on with the other person, but refrain from doing their therapy for them?

Johanna Lynn [00:09:00]:
Oh, what a powerful question. You know, I don’t know if you know this, Lora, but I walk this path as well. My first marriage ended due to infidelity, so I really understand where your listeners are coming from. And it is that knee jerk reaction, whether it’s the heartbreak or the betrayal, to move into blame, and how could this happen, and how could you? It’s almost like it’s a part of the process of getting to the other side of such a experience. Yeah. And I think your question is so there’s so much empowerment behind that question. Because if we stay stuck in blame you know, I had a very wise therapist tell me during this time that blame is the cheapest hit of power going. So if I’m stuck in blame, all my focus is out there onto them, and I don’t have a lot of ability to move out of that very, very painful place.

Johanna Lynn [00:09:51]:
Yeah. So what I was able to get to, because I didn’t wanna repeat that same pain, was to really do the deeper work of, okay, what was my part in the relationship kind of fraying, that this could even come in, that this could even happen? And I have to be honest with you, a lot of what I learned is I was an over functioner. I was an over giver. And so what I’ve learned in the work that I do today is that the over giver ends up collapsing the relationship. And we do that out of a place of just wanting things to be good, just wanting to feel that closeness, and if our partner isn’t able to meet us almost as quickly as we want to give more, there’s a restlessness inside the body, like a panic, that if I don’t close that gap the partner’s gonna move further and further away from me. But what we’re looking at here is really the big picture. Over time, over weeks months years, if I’m always the giver, there’s almost like an emotional indebtedness that the other person feels. And they’ll move away from the relationship in various ways.

Johanna Lynn [00:11:03]:
One of the ways is infidelity.

Lora Cheadle [00:11:05]:
Yeah. Yeah. I’m really thankful that you went there because it’s honest, and it’s hard to hear. It’s really hard to hear. But that’s what and I hate this phrase, but that’s what saved our relationship. My husband has a horribly, awful, traumatic background. Ridiculously horrible. Did he have work to do? Absolutely.

Lora Cheadle [00:11:31]:
Was I perfect? Yes. I was so perfect until I started looking at that. My perfection was like the savior complex that I do everything for everyone. And then that’s when I started looking at my history. Women throughout history have been over givers, over functioners, the mature ones, the ones who hold it all together. Yeah. And that did create a lot of bitterness and resentment also in my partner. And it wasn’t until I looked at that, which I thought it was a strength.

Lora Cheadle [00:12:03]:
Yes. That shifted everything. So let’s talk a little bit about that ancestral piece on both sides. And when you look at like that, I thought I was doing the right thing. When is your ancestral history a benefit, and when is it a burden?

Johanna Lynn [00:12:23]:
Oh, well, there’s good and bad in all things. Right? The longer I’m alive, the more I see that to be true. Good and bad in all things. And so, really, what we wanna understand is what both sides bring to the to the relationship. And so, a lot of the times we can look at it as systems are attracted to systems. And so, why are you attracted to your spouse or any of your listeners. Right? We could be out in in a bunch of different single people and we have that click with that one person. You know, why is that? And over the years, I mean, I’ve been doing relationship work for almost 18 years and it just feels so clear now because it just keeps confirming itself.

Johanna Lynn [00:13:05]:
Yes. That we’re attracted to that person, I believe, to heal these deeper family imprints. Yes. So that that workaholic husband that you’re that you marry is about the distant father or the father that left when you were 8. We fall in love with the familiar, not necessarily what is healthy or what we would tell a girlfriend we’re really looking for inside of our relationship. And so uncovering our own family imprints lets us not just kind of fall into the subconscious hook of what’s familiar. Yeah. We wanna be able to fall and build what’s healthy, fall in love with and build on what’s what we really want more of Yeah.

Johanna Lynn [00:13:48]:
Instead of just the default.

Lora Cheadle [00:13:50]:
Yes. Okay. So all in, totally get this. Love the systems piece. Yes. We marry other people, like you said, to heal our family imprints. But here’s the distinction I wanna talk about. It’s not you heal me.

Lora Cheadle [00:14:07]:
I didn’t marry this man so he could heal my childhood wounds. He didn’t marry me so I could heal his childhood wounds. And I think for a lot of people, there’s kind of a disconnect there because I wanna heal you. I wanna be the one that totally heals you. And talk about how how do you recognize that, and then how how do you reclaim and own that healing for yourself instead of putting it on your partner.

Johanna Lynn [00:14:37]:
And I just wonder as you say that if the Hollywood romcoms have have steered us wrong, you know, that Hollywood movies that think that that’s the way it should go. And the truth is if only we could heal another. It just doesn’t work that way. And so a really big part is, you know what, the best way that I can love you sweetheart is to work on myself. And the best way that you can love me is to work on yourself. And here we are in this kind of aligned path of commitment to self so that it can strengthen us. That if we move into mother or therapist inside of our marriage, we’re just headed off a cliff. This is not the way anything’s going to move well.

Johanna Lynn [00:15:21]:
Yeah. And I think when we try to change our partner, try to save, try to help, all with good intentions, it ends up really harming the relationship in the long run.

Lora Cheadle [00:15:31]:
Yeah. I agree. I agree. And it’s just I love how you brought in the rom coms because it is a narrative that we’ve all been fed that is not true. And it is challenging to break away from that sometimes. But I know in my case and then the people that I work with, once you kinda take that first step, that first step is the scariest. And then it’s like, oh, I do have control over me, and I do feel better

Lora Cheadle [00:15:58]:
just showing up in life.

Johanna Lynn [00:16:00]:
That’s right.

Lora Cheadle [00:16:02]:
Yeah.

Johanna Lynn [00:16:02]:
You know, it reminded me of a client that I just worked with this past week, and she was kind of acting as her partner’s health coach. He had some health issues, and she kept, you know, reminding and insisting and encouraging, and it was the main fork in the road for every argument. It was the spark to each and everything. And so when I shared with her, you don’t need to be his health coach, and I understand your desire to wanna help him with these changes because you want him to be around to to live a healthy life with you. Mhmm. But this has gotta come from inside of him. And a lot of the times, your helpful reminders end up feeling like he’s shamed or he’s back in that little boy place. And the husband’s on the call like, yes.

Johanna Lynn [00:16:45]:
Exactly.

Lora Cheadle [00:16:46]:
Thank you. That’s how I feel. Yeah. Exactly. Okay. So for some of the things like health or reminders or take out the trash or more like the life stuff, It can be irritating. That’s for sure. It can put somebody back into like that.

Lora Cheadle [00:17:03]:
My husband used to say, I feel like I’m in the principal’s office.

Johanna Lynn [00:17:07]:
And

Lora Cheadle [00:17:07]:
it was like, I don’t wanna be your principal. That’s thank you for that clarification because that’s not that’s not where I wanna be. For sometimes those smaller things, it’s it I feel like it can be more habitual. Okay. I just need to modify my language. I just need to let it go. This show, I really wanna dive into some of the narcissistic patterns and behaviors. Those are some bigger things.

Lora Cheadle [00:17:32]:
Mhmm.

Johanna Lynn [00:17:33]:
For

Lora Cheadle [00:17:33]:
those bigger things, I feel like it’s harder to let go of sometimes.

Johanna Lynn [00:17:39]:
You’re so right. Because doesn’t it end up feeling like I’m constantly in a compromise of self? If I let this go, if I don’t bring this up, you know, I’m constantly on the kind of bottom rung here of the balance inside the relationship. Yeah. And so I think the narcissism is such an important topic because what do we do in a situation where it feels like nothing’s changing? No matter how many times we bring it up, my spouse feels so self orientated that I’m last on the list. Yeah. And so for me, I always wanna go to where does that come from? How do we understand it? How do we resolve it? And so anytime I work with that inside my practice, I look at what stands behind the narcissist. And I gotta tell you, Lora, every single time, we’ve got parents that were either workaholics, alcoholics, you know, not present, quick to anger. There’s this piece where the narcissist is leaning into the spouse or the colleagues or the friends, whoever they can kinda get what they need

Lora Cheadle [00:18:42]:
Yeah.

Johanna Lynn [00:18:43]:
Because they’re empty from behind. They didn’t get enough of what every child needs to thrive, to feel sort of rooted in self, so they tend to kinda lean into everybody that’s close to them. That doesn’t mean if you love a narcissist that you can let that continue to happen, but at least there’s a different understanding of why it’s there. Maybe, more importance around why that person needs to do their own inner work because nothing you remind or share is gonna change this deeper behavior.

Lora Cheadle [00:19:15]:
Yeah. So mill $1,000,000 question and topic here. So if they just didn’t get enough in childhood, can’t I just fill them up? So can’t I just lean in for, like, I’ll commit to a year and I’ll give them everything and then they’ll be filled up and then they’ll just be healed. Why can’t I just do that?

Johanna Lynn [00:19:34]:
Yeah. I hear you. So I’m gonna use this cup as an example. So let’s say this is the narcissistic partner. We wanna imagine we’ve got a a bottom, like a, like, a empty hole inside this glass. So you’re pouring everything in, the love, the care, the the attunement, and it’s just going right through. So it’s really up to the narcissist to heal their container so that they can receive, so that that there is a willingness to often give back and reciprocate. What the narcissist is often fixated on is I need, what can I get, what’s in it for me because of this empty pit? And so they’ve got to do the work to close that off, that the deep inner work so that they’re able to hold the love, reciprocate the love, so the relationship can get on healthy ground.

Lora Cheadle [00:20:22]:
Yeah. And you know where I wanna go from there, this is kind of a sidebar, but it also means the narcissist can still love you. The narcissist can still want to be with you, and the narcissist can still cheat is this desperate attempt to keep filling myself up, filling myself up. And it really has nothing to do with you as the betrayed partner. It has nothing to do with you.

Johanna Lynn [00:20:47]:
That is so true. And that can also be so hard to hear because it’s like, what are you talking about? That’s my partner. I do take this personally. But again, we wanna look at the bigger picture. That if I’ve got an empty bottom in my whole body, I’m gonna grab that affection, that approval from anywhere I can get it. And so if we’re stuck and holding it as personal, that can be our limitation to be able to heal. So if you can see it from a broader perspective, that might be your ability to have a little more access to your own healing.

Lora Cheadle [00:21:21]:
Yeah. Or it chokes me up because it’s so powerful. Because for me, that was the turning point. When I realized I love the glass and the hole, my husband had a hole. That hole was not in my body. It was not in my psyche. It was not in my epigenetics. Mine was something else.

Lora Cheadle [00:21:43]:
And I was filled with such compassion for him. Because I could see what a horrible existence that must feel like. But that, just like you said, that’s what allowed me to access my own healing. So I thank you for stating that because it’s not about sacrificing ourselves because they had a horrible life. That’s right. It’s about that compassion, but then how do I fix me?

Johanna Lynn [00:22:17]:
That’s it. And it’s interesting what you said earlier about we’re not here to heal each other. It’s almost in a way we’re here to bring up all that’s unhealed. And then here it is out there on the table, and it’s like, okay, sweetie, what are you gonna do about your pile, and here’s what I’m gonna do about mine. So that we can love each other in a healthier way. So that we get to be each other’s soft place to land in this wild and crazy world out there, that our our love together can feel like a refuge instead of just another warring ground.

Lora Cheadle [00:22:50]:
Yeah. And then this circles right back around to what we were talking about at the very beginning, nature or nurture. So, okay, we’ve put it all out on the table, and we’ve figured out that your genetics are just messed up. How do I know as the betrayed partner if my partner can do it or not? Because there’s the phrases out there. Once a cheater, always a cheater. How do I trust? How do I know? How can I be safe when I can see their genetics are so bad? And they’re telling me that they wanna change, but how do I know?

Johanna Lynn [00:23:29]:
Oh, yeah. Isn’t that the $1,000,000 question? Yep. I think in a situation like that where we’ve hit that crisis point and we’re trying to rebuild the trust and rebuild the relationship, the best thing that you can do, and this is a difficult thing to do, is to stay fully anchored in yourself. So this is rebuilding your own confidence, your own broken heart, your own discernment, and being able to learn what it means to stay with yourself instead of giving yourself away for connection. Instead of being over there in a way with him, what does he need, how does he feel, is everything okay, should I walk on eggshells, I dare not say that. Versus, how can I really notice in my body, am I getting enough of what I need in this relationship? Because for the big the first 5 years or 10 years or however long this has been going on, I’ve been over there with him trying to modulate his experience, trying to fix or not upset, and that’s a dead end street, that there’s no way that we can have a long term relationship if that’s the way we’re we’re moving through it. Yeah. And so the the real repair work is how do I stay with myself when things feel unsettled in my relationship? How can I turn inward when all that comes up when I’m not sure that I can trust? Because that likely has its roots inside of you.

Johanna Lynn [00:24:56]:
What was it like not to trust a parent? What was it like to feel you had to walk on eggshells and you couldn’t say what your true needs really are?

Lora Cheadle [00:25:04]:
Yeah. Yeah. And I love that flip because, I mean, that’s what I believe too. That’s the work that I do unless we can be with ourselves. We we can tap dance all over the place and try to fix everybody else, but it doesn’t work. We can truly only control ourselves. And I wanna validate that it’s hard. It’s hard.

Lora Cheadle [00:25:30]:
Yeah. It’s really hard. And it’s hard to trust that. I hope he can fix himself, but I can’t do the work for him.

Johanna Lynn [00:25:42]:
Yeah. That’s it. That’s it. And we also I think a really deeper part is the reason I really hope he can fix himself is so this marriage can work out so that I won’t end up alone. A lot of the times, our deepest fear is running the way we might compromise ourselves, the way we might not really look at that red flag, because we’re just trying to keep everything okay. And so that for me has been my deepest work after recovering from my broken relationship. How do I really face that fear of being alone, and where does that come from? And what does making my way in life feel like from my own decisions? So that really was the hugest healing movement around everything that happened after my betrayal.

Lora Cheadle [00:26:27]:
Yeah. That’s so I I love because it it’s always there’s always something deeper. Always something deeper. Always something deeper. And it’s interesting that you said that too because last night, my husband and I were having a conversation, and he’s been really sad lately. He’s had some things come up at work, over Christmas, his mom, you know, abusive, but no call, no text, no no contact. And he’s like, even though it keeps happening, even though I don’t expect it, it still hurts. So we started talking about, like, feeling pain and how as humans, we don’t wanna feel pain.

Lora Cheadle [00:27:06]:
We don’t wanna feel discomfort. We don’t wanna feel and all of those ways he’s like, since Christmas on, I’ve been kind of deflecting that because I don’t wanna feel it. And he’s like, last night, he said, the last thing I wanna do is just sit down and cry you’re being depressed, but I need it. I need to just sit down and be really, really sad for a while because it’s been a month now and I’m doing this dance of pushing away the pain. And it reminded me of what you were saying like this is that fear of being alone. Okay. How do we just sit with that fear too?

Johanna Lynn [00:27:40]:
It sounds like he’s really done a lot of his own work. There’s a lot of wisdom in what he shared. Mhmm. And I think we’re up against a lot in our culture. We have so many distractions. We’ve got one right in the palm of our hand, right, to not feel and to avoid. And yet if you look at any of the somatic practices, if you look at any of how we really change and the science behind any of that, it really is meeting the emotion. So as scary as it might be to really sit with, you know, that kind of deep crushing pain and be able to have the tears breathe through so that it can be metabolized.

Johanna Lynn [00:28:19]:
Yes. Instead of it being something it’s almost like when you try to sit on a beach ball in the pool with so much focus to keep that ball down, it’s the same with these emotions. And the truth is that ball is gonna flip up. There’s gonna be a moment where you can’t quite keep it down, same with emotions. And oftentimes, we take it out in not such a kind way with the people closest to us. Mhmm. So the healthiest thing we can do is turn towards the depth of those emotions to process them so they’re not kinda running us from behind.

Lora Cheadle [00:28:50]:
Yeah. Yeah. And I know some of those emotions that come up for a lot of people here, and I I would just like to spend a couple seconds naming them. Why did I why did I get in this situation? I knew things were stressful with my partner. Why did I keep walking on eggshells? Why did I keep trying to keep the peace? Why didn’t I see this? Why am I having a hard time cutting and running right now when I know it’s not gonna be good? Why am I having a hard time? Like there’s all of that. We talk about turning inward. We talk about doing our own work. But then sometimes when we turn inward, there’s so much pain.

Johanna Lynn [00:29:27]:
Absolutely. I hear that a lot in the clients that I work with, all of those really good examples. And I think all that I can share is because it’s familiar. So can you be kind with yourself? Can you be tender with the heart that’s been hurt? And you find yourself back in these patterns, and we don’t notice them because we’re in it. It’s kind of like the forest for the trees. We it’s so darn familiar that we can’t recognize, oops, here I go again. Trying to be okay with what isn’t. Trying to make excuses for why am I being treated this way.

Johanna Lynn [00:30:04]:
And so the why did I stay is because it was so damn familiar. Yep. And now we’re in this crossroads where you’re ready to see it differently, where you’re ready to have fresh perspective and fresh eyes on it. So we wanna be able to take that opportunity to make the change now that there’s not the willingness to stay in the familiar.

Lora Cheadle [00:30:25]:
Yeah. Let’s talk about that tension because so many people, they’re ready. I’m gonna do this. And then you’re right. It’s hard. And people will say, I just wanna go back to normal. And when I always talk about it, it’s it’s like pretend normal. We’ve all seen what’s going on.

Lora Cheadle [00:30:42]:
Pretend normal doesn’t help. How does that look in practice, in reality, in therapy? Because it’s not like we make a decision and we move forward. There’s that vacillation. How does that look? What’s what’s normal? What can listeners expect once they make that decision?

Johanna Lynn [00:31:04]:
Wow. That what’s coming up for me is a book I’m reading right now called the myth of normal. You know, I think we’re such in a world as, again, like, put the smile on in the picture, and yet you’re hiding so much pain and despair. And so I think normal is gonna look different for each and every person. It’s like a spectrum. And the willingness to say, maybe things are gonna feel a bit messy. Maybe things feel a bit wobbly until I find my new center. Because I’ve been in such a place where I have felt confused or unsure or trying to make okay what isn’t, that really right now what I wanna be with is the clarity to really meet what is happening and what is going on here in reality instead of trying to make it okay, trying to make excuses for.

Johanna Lynn [00:31:53]:
And so maybe what it is is radical honesty. Yeah. What it is is just feeling what is here moment to moment instead of hoping that there could be a plan because I think we just wanna know when will the pain end. Okay. Are we talking 3 weeks? Are we talking 3 years? You know? And it’ll be a little bit different for each person walking this path.

Lora Cheadle [00:32:13]:
Yeah. Yeah. And that’s a great book, by the way. Definitely. Mhmm. Definitely, I highly recommend. Okay. So we’re we’re gonna play, like, this little game because I wrote down trying to make okay what isn’t.

Lora Cheadle [00:32:27]:
You’re big on inherited family trauma. I talk a lot about ancestral healing. Trying to make okay what isn’t. That was what was that’s my inherited trauma. I come from a long line of women who tried to make everything okay that wasn’t. Whether it was, you know, my dad being drafted and going to Vietnam, whether it was my, you know, grandmother’s husband, same thing in World War 2, whether it was my great grandmother going through the Depression and losing her son, and there’s having an alcoholic husband. I mean, there’s this long line of women, not just in my family because I think that’s kind of like the historical role of women. Think Little House on the Prairie.

Lora Cheadle [00:33:14]:
How do we make magic out of nothing at all? How do I you know what I mean? Spread love. That’s my inherited family trauma is trying to make okay what isn’t. It’s interesting because my partner’s trauma, they destroy things. In his family, he would always say my, you know, my family scorches the earth. So what a perfect fit. They’re scorchers and I’m making okay what isn’t. He scorches, I make okay what isn’t. He scorches.

Lora Cheadle [00:33:47]:
So when you talk about patterns and systems meeting each other, that was just a perfect example. So we have boom the explosion of infidelity. I start becoming aware. He starts becoming aware. When we’re both in our higher mind, it can go great. And yet still, 7 years later, there can be times where a pattern comes in and I’m like, dang. I just reacted the same way I would have reacted 10 years ago, and that’s not okay. How earlier, this is a compound complex question.

Lora Cheadle [00:34:23]:
Sorry. Earlier, we talked about owning our own recovery and not constantly reminding each other. And yet still in partnerships, we support each other. So can you talk about where is that bound between, honey, it looks like you might have slipped into one of our previous patterns

Johanna Lynn [00:34:42]:
Mhmm.

Lora Cheadle [00:34:42]:
And doing each other’s work.

Johanna Lynn [00:34:46]:
Yes. It’s almost as like you said earlier, imprint meets imprint, and that is what it is. Even though we are, improving and healing and doing our work, there can be moments in that reactionary place where exactly what you said, here I am back 10 years ago. How did that happen? Yeah. Because there’s such love and there’s such meaning to whatever’s happening in the moment that we can get sucked under. And so I think the best thing that we can do at in any of in any of our experiences, when we know better, we do better. So the fact that you even notice that, there’s the ability to correct and continue, which is, wow. I just feel like I regressed a decade.

Johanna Lynn [00:35:28]:
What you said really pulled me under. And I think our deeper work in that moment is, how can I get a hold of what I made that mean in an instant? Where did I go all the way back, and how can I work with what I made that mean? Because we’re really trying to understand what’s happening for us in the moment. What’s underneath our reaction? I think every time we step out of ourselves and over into what we hope our partner would do, we know we’re a little bit off track. Yeah. Yeah.

Lora Cheadle [00:36:01]:
Yeah. I love that. Great. Fabulous answer. Fabulous answer. So we’ve talked a lot about the relationship and the work between the partners, but it extends to more than that. It’s extended family. It’s friends.

Lora Cheadle [00:36:18]:
So how does this shift ripple out as you’re becoming more aware, as either the relationship is healing or it’s dissolving. How does this ripple back? How do you then approach your parents, your family of origin? How do you sit with your siblings who are not yet aware of this? How does that change look?

Johanna Lynn [00:36:41]:
That can be a bit of a hard path. And I think the biggest and most important thing to remember I think a lot of the times we talk about boundary work, and there’s this idea that, well, I have my boundary, but jeez, my mom never honors it, or, you know, my sister walks right over it. And so the remembrance that a boundary is not about can we press pause for a sec? Yeah. The dog is scratching at the door.

Lora Cheadle [00:37:08]:
Nope. That’s fine.

Johanna Lynn [00:37:12]:
So that can be a tough one, Lora. That can really be a practice that you need to come in ready and equipped when you go back to visit family. And so there’s a lot of talk about boundaries, and sometimes there are certain people who walk right over that boundary that you’re trying to hold. And so I think it can be really important to recognize that a boundary is never about the other person. Yep. So the boundary is about keeping you in when your mom says what she does, or your sister, you know, responds in a way that feels critical or gets you off center. And so this capacity to really be in your body, be in yourself, so that when that thing comes up, when that trigger, when maybe you’re misunderstood, you can respond from a place where it’s okay if you don’t understand my choices. I understand my choices.

Johanna Lynn [00:38:03]:
And that’s an So, you’re not in defense of what you’re doing, you’re simply not needing to explain yourself to anyone. You understand your choices. And so, I think this also goes back to not bringing your learnings to your mom, to your family, to, you know, extended family to because I think we do that. Come on, come with me. It’s easier this way. Join me over here. And we have to accept that everybody’s on their own path and and doing what they think is right.

Lora Cheadle [00:38:34]:
Yeah. Yeah. Two prongs that I wanna go. 1st prong is that leads to what you were talking about earlier, which is the fear of rejection, really. What’s underneath that? Yeah. I’m afraid my family’s gonna reject me. My siblings are gonna be rejecting me. So I think that’s the first thing.

Lora Cheadle [00:38:51]:
The second thing I wanted to say is you use the phrase in body and staying in your body. I do a lot of somatic work. You do a lot of somatic work. Sometimes I think people don’t really know what that means. What do you mean in your body, Johanna? What do you mean, Lora? I’m in my body. I live in my body. Let’s talk about that a little bit more. What does it mean to stay present with yourself? What does it mean to be embodied? What what is that? I I I’m in my body.

Lora Cheadle [00:39:21]:
Of course, I’m in my body.

Johanna Lynn [00:39:24]:
Well, we are all physically in our body, but before I really found this work, I would say I was more of a walking head. You know, everything was mental, and I didn’t really have a connection. If someone would say, how are you feeling right now? I would have to think. Oh, I’m feeling tense and kinda kinda nervous. I’m feeling uptight. But I wasn’t able to access where in my body that lived. And so a big part of my own sort of journey of coming home to myself of really making decisions from inside of me versus what my family might want or what other people or what society might expect was to really follow this somatic journey and and taking different courses and working with different practitioners. But the idea is really locating, Okay.

Johanna Lynn [00:40:13]:
In conflict with my spouse when I feel jealous or untrustworthy or these feelings that kinda take me off track and have me more in my reactive zone.

Lora Cheadle [00:40:25]:
Mhmm.

Johanna Lynn [00:40:25]:
What’s happening inside of my body? And so sometimes that just means slowing down enough. Really, we want to quiet the mind to find the sensation. So I often will tell my clients, can you be a sensation scientist? Can you find where your maybe your belly feels tight or your heart just drops? Or I will set up internal visualizations where I might say, okay. Close your eyes. And your ex or the person you wanna get back together with is stepping close. What’s happening in your body? Oh, my heart is racing. My mouth feels dry. And so we start to recognize we all have access to the body.

Johanna Lynn [00:41:07]:
It’s just the mind is louder. So we wanna turn the mind down from a 100 to maybe 10 and turn the body up, give the body a chance to speak to us because the body never lies. The mind can get easily confused, but the body is clearer and will always be a trusted guide for you.

Lora Cheadle [00:41:25]:
Yeah. Yeah. It is. There’s so much I I’m struggling with the word, so I’m pausing because I’m like, what is actually the word? Kind of disbelief in a way. We have just been conditioned to weigh that away from that. Mhmm. But the body doesn’t lie. It just doesn’t.

Lora Cheadle [00:41:46]:
And for anybody who’s listening and is thinking, yeah, whatever. That sounds like woo woo, whatever. Sure. Sure. Sure. I can think through this. I can think through this. We can’t just change your mind in one second.

Lora Cheadle [00:41:59]:
I know that. But I feel like my ask is just for a moment in your next stressful moment in your next argument, just try it and to see what kind of information you get because it is shocking. Yes. To me, it’s shocking. Absolutely.

Johanna Lynn [00:42:15]:
I think that’s a great invitation to just try it. We are so guided to let the mind lead, and I think one way to look at it is the mind has got you this far. And if you’re not liking where you’re at, it’s time to try something different.

Lora Cheadle [00:42:31]:
Yeah. I really love that. I really love that. Moving back in to some of the inherited stuff. We’ve talked about epigenetics. We’ve talked about nature, nurture. But I wanna say more of or hear you say more about this inherited trauma. If my great grandparents were in the holocaust, you’re telling me that trauma can impact me.

Lora Cheadle [00:42:58]:
If my mother was sexually abused, you’re telling me that can impact me. Say some more about inherited family trauma.

Johanna Lynn [00:43:07]:
Yes. Absolutely. To a lot of people, it sounds like what on earth are you talking about? How could that be? And so some of your listeners might want to look up one of my favorite researchers, her name was Rachel Yehuda at Mount Mount Sinai University. And her parents were Holocaust survivors. She’s a descendant of the Holocaust. And so she had a special reason to really look into what are the brain changes, what happens. And what she discovered is we are born prepared to deal with the stress of a previous generation. So I like to think of it as the innate intelligence of this miraculous body we all live in, that we’re born prepared.

Johanna Lynn [00:43:50]:
Almost as if the gift from our grandparents and our parents could say, just so the rug’s not pulled out from under you, just so you’re prepared, here’s the information Cellularly at the very level of the DNA in the body. Where this comes into trouble is let’s say we’re living in, I don’t know, beautiful Connecticut and everything’s abundant and available, but we’re living with the hyper vigilance of the grandmother that went through depression. I can’t tell you how many clients I’ve worked with Lora that have a full basement full of just in case food. You know, deep freeze is full of the just in case something happens. And every single time when I take their 3 generation geniogram, we have got stories of war, we have got stories of depression. So that there’s this panic in a way, like an alarm button that’s been pushed in their body, and they’re making decisions from that place. And so this can be the how we resolve long standing anxiety, how we really resolve this pulse in the body that keeps us stressed and on and hypervigilant. And the and the the root of it is combing through this family tree to find out what am I carrying that’s not mine.

Johanna Lynn [00:45:02]:
Yeah. I mean, my most influential teacher wrote a book called It Didn’t Start With You. And here I am

Lora Cheadle [00:45:09]:
book. Yeah.

Johanna Lynn [00:45:09]:
Here I am living in Mexico, and it translates to this pain is not mine. I thought, how perfect is that? And a lot of us think, well, this is just me. I just get anxious around crowds, or this is just me. This is how love go. My partners always leave me. I can’t trust them. And my deeper question is, where do you think that comes from? Would you like to be free of that set point? And that’s what epigenetics helps to unravel and show us. Mhmm.

Lora Cheadle [00:45:38]:
And I really appreciate that you asked to pose that question. Would you like to be free of this set point? Because if the answer is no, you don’t have to change. You don’t have to do the work. If this is working for you and you don’t want to or if you don’t want to now

Johanna Lynn [00:45:54]:
That’s right.

Lora Cheadle [00:45:55]:
That’s okay. Yeah. But when you’re

Johanna Lynn [00:45:57]:
Timing is everything as they say. Yes.

Lora Cheadle [00:46:00]:
But, yeah, when you’re ready, you can change it. It’s not just, yeah, well, it’s the way I was raised. It’s the way I believe.

Johanna Lynn [00:46:09]:
That’s it. And I think it’s human nature. I know for me, it was that the pain had to get so great. It’s almost like it squeezed me into looking at something that maybe I wouldn’t have looked at before when life was just rolling along.

Lora Cheadle [00:46:22]:
Yeah. Yeah. That’s why I often say infidelity betrayal is such a huge gift.

Johanna Lynn [00:46:29]:
Oh, yeah.

Lora Cheadle [00:46:30]:
Yeah. In the moment, it does not feel like a gift. But what it caused me to look at, who it helped me become would not have happened because I’m just not gonna dismantle my life because I feel like it and I wanna get better. But as long

Lora Cheadle [00:46:45]:
as it’s dismantled Yeah. Yeah. Let’s do something.

Johanna Lynn [00:46:49]:
My greatest growth curve. I mean, it was painful as anything, but it was the time I grew the most and got to know myself the best in my entire life so far.

Lora Cheadle [00:46:59]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So then moving this forward, talking about inherited patterns and nature versus nurture. So many listeners have kids, and sometimes we go, oh, gosh. I messed that up. Or, oh, how do I break this pattern going forward? And does my healing today impact generations in the future?

Johanna Lynn [00:47:25]:
Oh, yes. That’s the wonderful news. And so that’s the best gift we can give our children is to come to completion with whatever the pain was that lives in the family system. So I’ll work with some clients where they’re estranged from their mom, and often for a very good reason. Yeah. It’s not about seeing her every Sunday for a family dinner, it’s about changing the way you hold her inside. And some of my clients, their parents have long since passed away, but they’re still resentful and angry and hurt. And so the work we do is within ourselves that protects our children.

Johanna Lynn [00:48:02]:
So if I can really feel, you know, when mother’s day comes around or if somebody mentions how amazing their father is and I don’t feel that way about my own Yeah. If I can settle that within myself, this is what protects it from going on to the next generation. If you can imagine it like a series of dominoes, you’re the domino that says, nope. I’m coming out of that so that it the next domino doesn’t impact our children and our grandchildren. And so it’s incredible, this work and its ability to impact what we pass on to our kids.

Lora Cheadle [00:48:33]:
Yeah. I and I wrote that down too. Changing the way we hold them inside. You can still have the boundary. You still do not need to be with your abusive parent, but you can just shift that inside.

Johanna Lynn [00:48:46]:
That’s it. And I think sometimes it’s almost like a one of my favorite ways of working with clients is to come to this place of how could it have been any other way. So if I look at my mother and her, I don’t know, addicted mother and her father that left when she was 3, how could I expect my mom to be any other way? Yes. Because if you take a look at our parents’ generation, therapy was not really accessible or Yeah. It was. Something that people felt good about reaching out for. We’re so lucky in the generation we live in. I mean, psychology today is on every waiting room table where we can speak about it openly, and there’s not the stigma.

Johanna Lynn [00:49:25]:
Thank goodness. Yeah. And so we’re doing the work that they couldn’t.

Lora Cheadle [00:49:30]:
Yeah. Mhmm. And you’re and you’re right. There’s podcasts. We can listen to podcasts in the privacy of our oh, no. Nobody needs to know we’re doing online therapy. Like, there’s That’s right. Yeah.

Lora Cheadle [00:49:41]:
And I I I appreciate that question because, again, in my infidelity healing story and I challenge all listeners for this too. When I look at my husband’s past, of course, this happened. Of course, this happened. This was, like, the best scenario of all the things that could have happened considering what he went through. How could he have done any other way? And then on my side too, of course, I over functioned. Of course, I wanted to be the shining light to make everything good even when it wasn’t good. Even when it was good, I could see how I would spin it to make it not look good so I could make it good. Like, all of those layers, of course, I did that.

Lora Cheadle [00:50:28]:
Of course, he did that. So I really love that question. And I do challenge all of you listeners as we’re closing out this, show to ponder that today. How could it have been any other way? And maybe like me, you’ll also have that realization that this is actually the best scenario. It coulda, woulda, shoulda been a lot worse.

Johanna Lynn [00:50:52]:
Mhmm. Absolutely. Very well said. Yeah. I think it creates for me as you say that, like a settling in my body. And now look at it with fresh eyes.

Lora Cheadle [00:51:04]:
Yeah. Yeah. At one point I remember telling my husband, I think you should be in prison or dead. You know, based on what you went through, you shouldn’t be here. And you’re right. I like how you said the settling in the body and brought it back to that somatic piece. Because it’s not just intellectualizing it. It’s, oh, we’re all so blessed.

Lora Cheadle [00:51:28]:
We’re all so lucky. This feels really right. So thank you for bringing it back to the body.

Johanna Lynn [00:51:36]:
Mhmm.

Lora Cheadle [00:51:38]:
So before we head out, where can people learn more about you and your work, and just epigenetics and this whole concept of nature, nurture, trauma, all of that?

Johanna Lynn [00:51:53]:
Yeah, I love to write about this topic. So there’s all kinds of articles on my website, which is www.joannalynn. Ca. I’m on LinkedIn and Facebook under my name, Joanna Lynn. And so, yeah, you can you can find me there and read more about all that I’m doing.

Lora Cheadle [00:52:10]:
Yeah. And she has great stuff, and I will definitely put the links. We’ve known each other for several years. You’ve been on my podcast before. I will also put the link to our previous podcast, in the show notes here. So if people are like, I need more, you can get more. If this is new you listeners and you’re still thinking, I don’t exactly know. I just encourage you to lean into it a little bit more.

Lora Cheadle [00:52:36]:
And if you’re like, yeah, I I’m still working with this. Keep working with it. Keep working with it. If not for you, for your ancestors. If not for you and your ancestors, for your children. Be that domino. Pull it out. Make the changes.

Lora Cheadle [00:52:55]:
Because bottom line, it just feels better to be happy. It just feels better to be free.

Johanna Lynn [00:53:01]:
That is so well said.

Lora Cheadle [00:53:03]:
Yeah. Yeah. So thank you so much for your time and for your wisdom.

Johanna Lynn [00:53:08]:
Thanks for having me, Lora. It’s always great to be in conversation with you.

Lora Cheadle [00:53:12]:
Yeah. You’re welcome. Listeners have an amazing week. And as usual, always remember to flaunt exactly who you are because who you are is always more than enough.

Lora Cheadle [00:53:24]:
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Lora Cheadle [00:55:01]:
Tune in next time to flaunt. Find your sparkle and create a life you love after infidelity or betrayal with Lora Cheadle every Wednesday at 7 AM and 7 PM Eastern Standard Time on syndicated DreamVision 7 Radio Network. Uncover the truth of what’s possible for you on the other side of betrayal and develop the skills and strategies necessary to embrace the future and flourish today. Download your free betrayal recovery toolkit at betrayalrecoveryguide.com.