Thank you to BetterHelp for sponsoring this podcast! Take charge of your mental health and get 10% off your first month of therapy at https://BetterHelp.com/FLAUNTMediation

Lora Cheadle [00:00:01]:

 

You’re listening to FLAUNT!. Find your sparkle and create a life you love after infidelity or Betrayal. Have you been betrayed by life, your body or someone that you love? You’re not alone. No matter what you’ve been through, Naked Self Worth helps you regain confidence, joy and enthusiasm so you can create a life you love and flourish. Tune in weekly and learn how. Wait a minute. Before you go on, I’ve got something for you that you are going to love. It’s the Sparkle After Betrayal Recovery Guide, a downloadable guide that shows you exactly how to untangle yourself from the past.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:00:49]:

 

Powerfully reclaim your sexy, and rechoreograph your future one step at a time. The best part, it’s free and downloading. It gives you access to our monthly support calls as well. What are you waiting for? Break out of the pain and get your sparkle on today. Go to Naked Selfworth.com. That’s www dot naked selfworth.com and get your guide today. Hello and welcome to FLAUNT!. Find your sparkle and create a life you love after infidelity or betrayal.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:01:37]:

 

I’m Lora Cheadle, and today we are going to talk both generally and specifically about mediation. And what I mean by mediation is mediation in preparation for divorce or for a legal separation or even in some cases, just in figuring out some rules and some parameters for you and your partner to go through the whole recovery process after infidelity. The woman that I have got on today’s show is Leslie Garsky, who is amazing. And I’ll tell you a little bit more about her before I bring her on. But what I want to say is she is state specific. She is working in Colorado. However, a lot of the information that she is going to share with you today will be applicable to you, no matter what state you’re in, no matter what country you’re in. Because, yes, although divorce laws are different everywhere, they’re also the same in a lot of different regards.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:02:47]:

 

And the point of this show is to educate you about the process, about different things that you can look for, to let you know that you don’t have to have a contentious divorce that gets litigated, but to show you what is possible. So, with that, let’s bring on our guest, Leslie Garske. Leslie Garske is the founder of Garske divorce mediation. She is a mediator and she’s also a certified divorce financial analyst and a settlement consultant. So with that, welcome to the show, Leslie.

 

Leslie Garske [00:03:26]:

 

Well, thank you, Lora. It’s good to be here.

 

Lora [00:03:29]:

 

Yeah. So let’s start from the very beginning, from the very basics. What is mediation?

 

Leslie Garske [00:03:37]:

 

So there’s actually kind of two variations of mediation. Not to get too complicated, but when people get divorced, they typically think of hiring attorneys. And then when you hire attorneys, you’ll go through the attorney process, and that will usually entail mediation. Whereas husband will have an attorney, wife will have an attorney, and then an attorney. Mediator kind of goes back and forth to each of those separate rooms. So they’re separated generally into separate rooms, and then they plan out or discuss and agree on their property settlement and their parenting plan, usually all in the same day. So that’s kind of been the traditional way that mediation has been used. And you’ll hear people talk about, yeah, I went through mediation.

 

Leslie Garske [00:04:21]:

 

It was 8 hours. I had to decide everything. I don’t even know what I signed because it was just such a chaotic frenetic or frantic time, and they didn’t maybe feel like they really had time to think about things and prepare as much as they’d like. So that’s kind of the traditional mediation. But what we do and what I’ve learned over the years is kind of a cool way to do things that people can, is do mediation where that is really where you’re working together. And then the attorney mediation is the same thing. They’re working together to come up with a solution to the settlement, 50 50 settlement or whatever the property settlement and their maintenance and then their child support and parenting plan are.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:05:00]:

 

Right.

 

Leslie Garske [00:05:01]:

 

Yes, we’re doing that, but we’re going to do it without attorneys present. Now, this isn’t for everybody, but a lot of couples are like, you know what, we could really do better of figuring out our own settlement, and we might need legal advice along the way. But if we could just sit down at the table and kind of figure get some help with our finances, we might be able to come up with a pretty decent solution. And many, many couples have found that that’s really the best way for them to go about it. And I know, like, Gwyneth Paltrow kind of started this conscious uncoupling.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:05:36]:

 

Yes.

 

Leslie Garske [00:05:37]:

 

It’s a little more of a kinder, gentler way to go about divorce. And so we try to bring that flavor to how we help couples untangle their assets and debts and come up with a family friendly parenting plan with just a mediator and the couple there at the table over a series of meetings.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:05:58]:

 

I love the idea of a series of meetings because you’ve mentioned there are different things that need to be decided. Like there’s property, division of property. That’s a lot. I mean, I know a lot of the people that I work with say I can’t even decide whether or not I want to get divorced. I found out about this infidelity I don’t know what to do because the idea of divorcing and the idea of separating all these things is too overwhelming and I can’t even get my head around what happened. I can’t figure out if this relationship is worth saving. This was a total bombshell, let alone thinking about property and maintenance and parenting plans. That’s so much to think about.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:06:44]:

 

So I really appreciate that you break that down into different meetings so you don’t have to think about everything all at the same time.

 

Leslie Garske [00:06:53]:

 

I know it is so overwhelming, especially in that situation where you’re just recovering from hearing some news or finding something out that’s so devastating. And so what we have a lot of clients or men or women who come to the workshop. So we do once or twice a month, we do have what we call a divorce boot camp or a divorce workshop where people can at least learn what divorce would look like. So they’re not really making a decision yet. They’re just getting information. And maybe they aren’t really sure what to do, but they want to know, well, what would it look like if we divorced? Would I be okay financially, emotionally? Maybe I would like that, but maybe it would be too hard financially. So I wouldn’t make that decision.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:07:34]:

 

Yes.

 

Leslie Garske [00:07:35]:

 

So what we do in the workshops or the boot camp is we have a lawyer present. We have a mediator, financial analyst, realtor mortgage lender, divorce coach and therapist. We have a whole team. They’re ready to answer questions. We kind of give our top five things you need to watch out for. And from there, people can start deciding what might be the route they want to look into or what route they might go. And we even have people that might come to the boot camp and then not even really do anything about their situation for another year or two. Yes.

 

Leslie Garske [00:08:08]:

 

They’ll let things play out, work on the marriage, see if they can get that trust back, or see if things can change or go to the counseling or something and work on themselves or work on their marriage. And then if they feel like they need to come back, at least they have some resources. And then a lot of times what they’ll do as well is one spouse. Usually it’s the woman who’s like, what would it look like financially? I’m home with the kids. I don’t have any income right now. What would it look like? So we’ll do just a settlement consultation, and we can kind of walk through, what are your assets right now in the marriage? What could be marital property? What could it look like for you? And would you be comfortable with that kind of a monetary situation? And a lot of times people are like, no, I’m going to wait. It’s not going to be the right thing for me. Or they’ll be like, yeah, I think I’m going to be okay.

 

Leslie Garske [00:08:56]:

 

I think I’ll pull the trigger. And they can make a decision at least.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:08:58]:

 

Yeah. And I love that. And what I want to say, too, is your partner, your spouse, doesn’t even have to know that you’re doing this. This is just getting information. And I advise the people that I coach, the people that I work with. I tell people that really, every few years, this is something that they should look at and reassess anyway for themselves. No matter how happy or unhappy the marriage is, it’s really important to know where you stand with things, because your partner could divorce you. You could choose to divorce them.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:09:30]:

 

Your partner could pass away just like all of these different things could happen. It’s just really empowering to know where you stand and what is marital and what is not marital and what you might want to look into doing in the future, whether it is starting now to get yourself educated in preparation for a career or just understanding where you stand. That is invaluable. And your partner doesn’t even need to know that you’re contemplating this.

 

Leslie Garske [00:09:59]:

 

Exactly. It’s really empowering. It helps people sleep better at night just because if they do have suspicions or things aren’t going right, what would it look like? Will I be out on the street? Will I have nothing? And a lot of times we find that, and it can be both ways, but the person that’s not making the money so the women a lot of times, or the man, whatever, they feel so intimidated or bullied, and they’re told, this isn’t your money. You don’t have anything if without me, you’d be nothing. And they start to believe some of this stuff, and they don’t even realize that they are entitled to half of the assets in the marriage and maintenance in certain case, in most cases, if there’s a discrepancy in income. And there’s a lot of things that can give them peace of mind and not be worried at night. Kind of thinking in the middle of the night when you’re like, what should I be doing? This is not good. And you’re kind of worried.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:10:44]:

 

Yeah. And then you don’t feel trapped too, you know, okay, I am choosing to work on this relationship for a period of time, but I know that I’m not trapped. I know I will be.

 

Leslie Garske [00:10:55]:

 

Okay, exactly. And then it is a choice. It’s not like you’re just forced some people think I’ve got to wait till the kids are out of high school or whatever, and that might be a great idea. I’m not would push anybody for divorce. But at least you’re feeling like it is a choice and not like you.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:11:09]:

 

Have to yeah, exactly. So when you sit down with people, you have these different mediations. So it’ll be like one on property and then no lawyers are present in the way that you do it. You just talk about it. But it’s also how based on the law is it? Can people just decide absolutely anything under the sun that they want? Or are you giving them some structured guidance? How does that work?

 

Leslie Garske [00:11:38]:

 

That’s really good because that’s kind of scary. If you’ve got some like, let’s do mediation and this is how it’s going to look, and you’re like, oh, I don’t know if I agree with that. So what we do to kind of alleviate that is we do break it down into four basic meetings. And the first one, like you said, is property division. And normally when people go to that meeting, they’ve already provided us all of their required financials. That’s the 16.2 financial disclosures in the state of Colorado. They give them all to us. We prepare a spreadsheet that has everything on it.

 

Leslie Garske [00:12:06]:

 

So when they come to that first meeting, it is a working meeting. We spend 2 hours going over what’s the value of the house, who’s going to live where, what are some of the ideas you have for where you’re going to live, someone going to refinance the mortgage, you’re going to buy them out? What about the retirement assets? I mean, there’s a lot what is separate versus marital property? Because in Colorado we’re a fair and equitable state, which, what does that mean? Right? What does that mean? Because people want to say it’s a 50 50 state and we’re really not categorized as a 50 50 state. What we are is a fair and equitable state. And what that means, at least to me and most of the colleagues I work with in the divorce industry, is you find out what is marital. And that’s kind of a key word. A marital property is anything that’s accumulated during the marriage. So if somebody had like a 401K before they got married and the 401K was worth $50,000 when they got married and now it’s worth $200,000, that gain of $150,000 is considered marital property and subject to division. So that first meeting when we’re going over the spreadsheet of all the assets and the debts, we ask, did you have any of this before you got married? Well, yeah, I had some student debt and I had my 401.

 

Leslie Garske [00:13:20]:

 

And then since during the marriage, I actually had an inheritance for $100,000. So all of those things can be taken outside of the marital estate and then what’s remaining in the marital estate, we look at, well, what seems fair? Probably 50 50. I mean, most families are like, yeah, that does seem fair. Once we remove all those things, then yeah, 50 50 seems fair. And it’s not always the case, and I can give you exceptions, but what we do is we do start at a 50 50. Once we find out what’s marital, what’s separate, then the mediator is going to present on a spreadsheet what 50 50 looks like. And that doesn’t mean every checking account and every 401K has to be exactly in the middle. You can keep more of some things and less of others.

 

Leslie Garske [00:14:07]:

 

But because we’re certified divorce financial analysts, we put on our financial hat and look at the tax consequences. So when someone says, I’ll keep all my retirement and you can have the house, well, you might want to keep the house because that has dollars that have already been taxed and the 401K is pretax. So we try to tax affect everything so people really understand what they’re saying. No, and what they’re saying yes to and like with the houses now, and at least I don’t know if this podcast is national, but I know a lot of housing prices have gone up. And so now we have to kind of look at is there going to be a capital gains tax on the house if you keep it? Before, we didn’t really worry about that as much, but now that everything’s kind of skyrocketed. The other thing, too is, is it really feasible for someone to refinance the mortgage now that rates are so much higher? They’re at 8% right now, right? And they’ve got like a 2.75 currently. They’re like, what do we do? So we try to come up with creative solutions to help them make a deal. That works for both of them.

 

Leslie Garske [00:15:07]:

 

But we really do look at a 50 50, and then if someone says, you know what, I don’t need 50 50, maybe they feel really bad about things. Maybe it’s just they’re going to get inheritance later, or whatever their reasoning is for saying, I’ll take 40 and you can have 60, that’s fine. But we want everyone to understand very clearly why they made that decision because somebody might feel really bad and they’ll take less, and that’s okay, but they need to understand, was that an emotional thing? And does the other person realize you just gave up $40,000 or whatever? So we really want to make sure everyone’s very clear so they can put the whole thing to bed.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:15:42]:

 

Yeah, I really appreciate talking about the tax consequences and things like that because you don’t know what you don’t know. And that’s the benefit of using mediators, of using certified divorced financial planners, of using people who know what you don’t know.

 

Leslie Garske [00:15:59]:

 

Exactly. And we’ve got so many, it’s sad, but we do have a lot of gray divorces or silver divorces where people are butting up against retirement and they’re looking at divorce. And so some of the normal practices that you think about may not apply. Rather than current income. Well, what about equalizing retirement assets? What kind of income are these retirement assets going to spin off and is ever going to have enough? Are we trying to make things equal there, or there’s just so many different things. So we really want to educate our clients so they can make very informed decisions.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:16:31]:

 

Yeah, absolutely. And I’m just going to jump into you because you asked about this. This is actually internationally syndicated, so people from all over the world will be hearing this information. And yes, laws are different in every country, laws are different in every state, laws are different in every jurisdiction. However, and this is what I want to say, however, mostly it either is equitable distribution, which is making it fair, or still 50 50, but even when it’s 50 50, there are factors that will go to help make it fair. And I don’t care what state you’re in. I don’t care what your jurisdiction you’re in. There is an equitable component to things and it is important to understand all of these same concepts that you can mediate, that you can litigate, that you can do this with lawyers, that you can do this without lawyers.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:17:26]:

 

So many of these same concepts are the same same thing with tax consequences. Yes, every state has its own different tax code, but we also have federal that applies to all of us. And no matter how the details fall out, you are all subject to tax. I don’t care what part of the world that you’re in, it’s going to be an impact. So I just wanted to say that, that yes, there’s some state specific things, but the concepts apply to everyone.

 

Leslie Garske [00:17:55]:

 

Sure, that’s right.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:17:57]:

 

Yeah. And same thing with maintenance and with parenting time and the parenting plan. Let’s talk about those next meetings. We’ve gotten property done. We’ve got some of the ideas about being aware of the tax implication, being aware of retirement, being aware of what you’re giving up, what you’re not giving up. What is the next meeting that people would go to?

 

Leslie Garske [00:18:22]:

 

So the second meeting is all about income and cash flow. And I just want to add when we do the first meeting, no decisions are made. Our whole premise is nobody’s pressured to make any decisions. You come and you learn for those 2 hours you start trying on like you might go home. Nobody knows who’s going to keep the house. So we meet every two weeks. So there’s two weeks in between the meeting and you can go home and say, you know what, do I really want to keep this house? Do I really want to live here? Because now’s the time to start dreaming. You do have a future here and we really help people to try to encourage people to look forward.

 

Leslie Garske [00:18:55]:

 

Look forward. Maybe you’ve always wanted to live in downtown area with a tiny little condo and you can walk to all the different shops and eat out all the time and have all the fun. Or you want to live out in the country. Whatever it is, it’s time to start dreaming because you’re not stuck with this house. You might want to live in the house. So you might love this house and let’s see how we can make it work for you. Or maybe you’re like no, I want to sell, I want to live somewhere. This is where I’ve always wanted to live.

 

Leslie Garske [00:19:17]:

 

Or I want to move back home to where the state I came from or where I came from. So that first meeting is really important that it kind of feels like all these puzzle pieces have been thrown up in the air. But it’s okay because it’s time to really start thinking. We’re not making any decisions yet, just kind of try on some ideas. And then we come into the second meeting and we’ll talk about maybe things you ruminated about what the value of the house is or where you might want to live, kind of recap from the first meeting. And then we dive into income and expenses and cash flow. So now we want to figure out, and this is something that I think is so important, what are you spending and what do you need in your new life if you’re going to stay in that house, do you need to refinance or not? And we can kind of get into that as a separate issue, but right now, is that when you can afford can you afford to cash out and buy out your spouse or a lot of people right now because rates are so high and it’s harder to refinance at this time. They’re saying, you know what, our kids are in 6th and Eigth grade.

 

Leslie Garske [00:20:15]:

 

Let’s stay in the house until that youngest one graduates high school. Then I’m going to sell, and then I’ll pay you your half. So they’re actually staying joint owners, but we write it in. We just got to make sure everyone’s on board. No one needs that money out. If someone needs the money out, then we might have to sell. I mean, like, you got to kind of figure out and have both people figuring this out, but that might be something that happens. So anyway, we’re trying to set up a new budget.

 

Leslie Garske [00:20:39]:

 

What is your new budget? What do you spend now on groceries? What do you spend now on know anything you’ve got. What is your current expenses? What are your current expenses? And now what will this new living situation look like?

 

Lora Cheadle [00:20:51]:

 

Right?

 

Leslie Garske [00:20:52]:

 

So expenses are one thing, but income is the other. And income, it can be daunting if you’ve not worked for a while and now you’re like, okay, I know I’m going to have to work, because I think Colorado at least definitely has a premise that if you’ve been an at home parent that you will have to work. It’s not the other parent’s burden to have you have a zero income, right? So we work with a lot of women and men who have not worked in a while, and it’s daunting to go out and get your resume together and find a job and do you need some schooling or certification? And we talk about should the marriage pay for that? Is that something that maybe the marriage should finance? Give you a couple of $1,000 for some career coaching and maybe some money for tuition to get you where you want to be eventually talk about that, and then we talk about what is the income? It seems like our typical client has you can both be working, and so there’s no maintenance because their incomes are equal and money isn’t really a problem. And that’s the best situation. But a lot of families, mom is stayed at home or dad has stayed at home, and the other person is really doing great in their career, right? Very intense and complex compensation packages. They could be getting restricted stock units. They could be getting bonuses. They got the golden handcuffs going.

 

Leslie Garske [00:22:08]:

 

They’ve got lots of different bells and whistles and it’s hard to even understand or unpack how that even works, right? And then you’ve got the stay at home parent that really has been in the dark about it, doesn’t necessarily understand. It knows that money’s been great and now things are going to change. So we really try to figure out, what does that look like, unpack all of the income, what are everybody’s expenses going to be? And the other thing too, that we really go over in that meeting are, what are your kids expenses? Because the parenting, the child support discussion comes the next meeting, but the current expenses, like soccer, cheerleading, college, none of that is paid for by child support. So we just go over, what are these expenses? Are you going to still have your kids in competitive baseball that cost a grand a month? Or all these things? Can you still afford these things? We wanted to get it on paper because the best thing about what I do is I have to embrace and accommodate people’s emotions. But it’s nice to be the financial side because I can put it on a spreadsheet and say, okay, you’re upside down by $2,000 a month, what are you going to do?

 

Lora Cheadle [00:23:16]:

 

Right?

 

Leslie Garske [00:23:18]:

 

That’s just such black and white thing. So the couple can kind of figure out what they might need to do away with or how are they going to work this out and how is this going to work. So we go over the kids expenses and the individual home expenses, what the two homes are going to look like in the future. And then we kind of come up with what maintenance or alimony might needed because in Colorado, it’s based on need and ability to pay. But we also have a calculation that there’s a guideline calculation that you can just plug in your income. You know, so the big one is like, okay, you’re not working or you’re only working part time. And your spouse is like, well, I know you can work full time, and I know you can make a lot more money than what you’re making. That can be kind of scary because it’s like, well, I haven’t done it.

 

Leslie Garske [00:24:02]:

 

I know you think I can make 100,000 a year, but I haven’t made that ever. Right now I’m making 25 at a part time job. So it’s really scary. So we try to kind of lay some foundation, like, really, how realistic is that to make 100,000? And I know in some people’s anger they might say, oh, you can do that tomorrow. Come on, I don’t have to pay you any maintenance. But it doesn’t seem that realistic, really. So we try to kind of figure out maybe a graduated way to have know, maybe start out a little bit more and then taper off as that spouse starts to work more and is earning more. We really try to come up with because there’s really two ways to have maintenance in Colorado.

 

Leslie Garske [00:24:41]:

 

You can have modifiable, which every year you kind of compare your incomes and see what that maintenance calculation spits out.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:24:49]:

 

Right.

 

Leslie Garske [00:24:50]:

 

Or you can do contractual, whereas, okay, we’ve agreed on $3,000 a month for ten years, and it’s not changeable. Once you do contractual, you can’t really change it. And so we kind of educate people on making the right decision. And some people don’t like writing checks every month, so they were like, I’d rather just give you more of the house or more of the retirement assets or something instead of writing any checks. And so we just look at all the different angles and what’s best for the couple. Yeah.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:25:18]:

 

So basically everything can be done in a variety of different ways. It can be structured however you want it. It’s just that you need to know what the different options are.

 

Leslie Garske [00:25:29]:

 

Exactly. Because it is really customized, and that’s why I love it. And because we do this all the time, we have so many ideas and different ways that people have done it in the past that we can bring a lot to the table. Whereas most people, this is hopefully the only one and only time they’re going to go through this. They don’t need to be good at this right now.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:25:48]:

 

You also said something about anger, and I just wanted to address that too, because anger does come up. A divorce is emotional even in the best of circumstances. When you’re consciously uncoupling, it’s emotional. When you find out your partner has been cheating on you, it can make you extremely irrational. It can make you extremely vindictive. The cheating partner can also be very vindictive because they feel shame because they’ve been caught. And how does that work? What is your recommendation around mediation when there’s high emotions? Is it suitable? Is it not suitable? What are your thoughts on that?

 

Leslie Garske [00:26:31]:

 

That’s really good. That’s kind of a topic we dance around. Right? Usually I have kind of two different ways to answer that. First of all, I really feel like if someone has just been told they’re in shock, they’re in shock. And I’ve had people come to our we do an initial consultation just to see if they’re a match they can learn about, to see what they think they like our process and see how it works. And the person will come in just like as a zombie, they’re kind of out of it. I just found out this is going on. I guess we’re getting divorced.

 

Leslie Garske [00:27:04]:

 

Or they just found out that one of the partners wants the divorce and they’re just kind of stunned. And I feel like that’s too early. I don’t think that’s a good set up because. The next stage after shock is usually anger get mad. I mean, this isn’t what they wanted, usually. So you got to let them have that anger. It’s got to come, and it’s got to get worked through kind of the next after that is the resentment. And so it’s tough to do mediation when you’re angry and resentful.

 

Leslie Garske [00:27:32]:

 

If you kind of wait it out and get to the acceptance stage, it’s going to be a lot more successful mediation. I always encourage people. I said we can only go as fast as the slowest person. And someone that’s just reeling is not going to have their expenses ready. They’re not going to be able to look at retirement assets. They’re not going to be ready to sit down. They’re just going to be blinded with their emotion. It’s really hard.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:27:54]:

 

Yeah, I love that phrase. We can only go as fast as the slowest person because that’s true. You cannot force another person into this.

 

Leslie Garske [00:28:03]:

 

It’s hard. And the ones that have I used to do that years ago or think, okay, if you guys are ready, let me know. And then it just blows up. It just doesn’t go anywhere because they’re so angry and they think that they deserve more. And in Colorado, we’re a no fault state. Doesn’t matter how horrible the other person appears to be. Usually it takes two, right? Somehow.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:28:24]:

 

Somehow.

 

Leslie Garske [00:28:24]:

 

Not that it’s always that, but they’ve got to realize that no one’s going to get punitive damages in a divorce for suffering. But in the mediation, someone might feel bad. Yeah, I had a couple that the guy had been cheating and he felt horrible. He gave a lot more money than he ever had to, but it was wonderful for her and he was fine with it. So, I mean, we’ll encourage that all day long. If you’ve got the money and you want to give more because you feel bad.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:28:52]:

 

Yeah, absolutely. And the education can be valuable. Whether you’re in shock, anger, or resentment, I think sometimes that can actually help you move through the anger and find that acceptance. When you go to the divorce workshop, where you start getting educated, where you start thinking, okay, I will be okay, or on the flip side, I’m not going to be okay, but this is my chance then to make myself okay. This is my time and I’m going to take it, and I’m going to figure me out.

 

Leslie Garske [00:29:24]:

 

That’s huge. When people can start taking ownership of where they want to be and where they are, that is just a huge step. And I’ve seen that kind of through our process, too, because we really do encourage people to look forward and not to look back. And if they’re I have had clients that get stuck, like, okay, they think everybody seems fine, and then we get to some sticking points, and occasionally we’ll either separate out, like a really tough one. Sometimes the maintenance discussion is a tough one. They just don’t want to write checks, and they just don’t think that person should have maintenance. They really think they could make it on their own. They want the divorce.

 

Leslie Garske [00:30:01]:

 

You want a divorce. I don’t want to have to fund your lifestyle. It’s just so painful. So we might do that separately, and I might talk with wife by herself. Let’s get your budget. Let’s see what the guideline says. What do you seem like you might be entitled to, or what are you going to pay? A lot of times now, there’s a lot of stay at home dads, and wives are like, I don’t want to pay you anything. You should be able to get a job.

 

Leslie Garske [00:30:23]:

 

But there’s maintenance is definitely a thing, and it can be very emotional. So a lot of times we’ll just talk separately. Okay, we’ll talk to you about maintenance. And it might take an hour with husband and then an hour with wife and then back to husband. Like, okay, this is what we came up with, with her budget, and this is what she thinks she can make right now, and she’s willing to graduate or he’s willing to graduate up every year into a certain amount. We can go that way, but let’s get it kind of customized so everybody feels heard and nobody’s just slacking or all of those kind of things. So sometimes we do it. We meet separately, and it really does seem to work.

 

Leslie Garske [00:31:01]:

 

It takes some of that emotion out because they’re just talking to me or the mediator. They’re just talking to the mediator, and they can be angry all they want. The mediator is like, no problem, it’s fine because it’s not personal, right. But then they’ll go to the other spouse and say, okay, this is really important to him. He really doesn’t want to write checks. He really thinks that you should be able to make X amount of dollars by year three or is willing to have you go to career coaching. I don’t hate to use genders anymore because we get in trouble, but really, it’s either way. We really just look at the situation and try to help both people get to where they need to be.

 

Lora [00:31:38]:

 

Yeah, exactly. So is that the third discussion then, the maintenance?

 

Leslie Garske [00:31:43]:

 

No, that’s usually in that income and expenses that’s all about, because how much do you need for maintenance? Okay, you’re going to spend $1,000 a month or five or whatever, and you’re only making two. Is it really husbands or wives responsibility to send you a check for $4,000? Or should you work more or cut back or do a different career? So that’s really in meeting number two and then meeting number three, we move on to parenting. And not everybody has kids, but even when they have adult kids, we touch on, okay, are they still on the payroll? Are you paying for college? Because Colorado only really says you’re responsible for your kids until they become illegal adults, which is when they turn 19. So through their 18th year, okay, people would pay child support until they turn age 19. But so many families want to pay for kids college. They want to pay for their health insurance. They want to pay for uninsured medical until they turn 26. Right.

 

Leslie Garske [00:32:39]:

 

Talk about all that and how that’s going to go. We talk about holidays, even with adult children, because the last thing you want to do to your kids is say, hey, guess what? Mom and I mom and her new boyfriend want to invite you to Christmas Eve. And then dad and his girlfriend also want to invite you to Christmas Eve. And now you have to pick. That’s a horrible place for kids, even if they’re 40 years old. That’s just awful. So we really talk about, like, hey, how do you guys want to handle holidays? Do you have certain ones you prefer? Because we certainly don’t want the kids to be in the middle or feel really bad that one of the parents is alone on a holiday.

 

Lora [00:33:12]:

 

Yeah, and I really appreciate that you say even for adult kids, because, yes, we don’t want to hurt our kids. And then again, it can be all too easy, I think, for people to use the kids as weapons then, and as long as it gets talked about before, hopefully it will start opening eyes that, you know what? I understand that you might want to use the kids as a weapon here, but you’re hurting them, and let’s have some conversations and let’s make some decisions now so that the kids are protected in the long run.

 

Leslie Garske [00:33:46]:

 

It’s so important. That’s kind of the whole reason, I think, that this conscious uncoupling has happened, because so many families went through divorce for the decades preceding us. The it just got so ugly. And these poor kids have learned just through the trauma that they went through, having to be on one parent’s side or have two totally different identities. Oh, I have to be one way at Mom’s, but I got to act like I hate dad, and then I’m over at Dad’s, and I better act like I better not say anything about what goes on at Mom’s. And there’s just this huge loyalty bind that we’re really learning that that is so damaging. And we want to make sure that the kids are protected the best they can be.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:34:22]:

 

Yeah, that’s a really tough one. Really tough one. Okay, so the third one is parenting. And then what is the fourth meeting?

 

Leslie Garske [00:34:30]:

 

The fourth meeting is where it all comes together and you can decide what you’re saying. Yes, too. Okay. I can pay that much maintenance because I’m going to refinance the house later. Like, I don’t have a larger payment. I’m going to refinance in four years or when rates come down or whatever the language is, or when we sell so I can’t afford that much maintenance to pay and then, oh yeah, I can handle all the children’s expenses or 50% of the children. I can all this because it works. So I can say yes to this, no to that, and yes to this.

 

Leslie Garske [00:34:58]:

 

And that last meeting is where all of it comes together. And that’s also when they fill out all their pro se documents because in our mediation, it’s non attorney mediation. And I need to add though, but in between all of these meetings, if somebody wants legal advice, like, yeah, I got an inheritance and it went up 40 grand, but we spent 20 of it, is that still marital? I mean, those kind of legal questions, we always ship them off to an attorney that will talk to them on an unbundled basis. So they’ll retain them, but they can retain them just for some advice and then come back so they’re not fully represented by a lawyer in the eyes of the law, the court. So then they can come back and still be pro se, which means they don’t have formal representation in the eyes of the court. They’re still just their own person in front of the court without a lawyer. And then they bring all their pro se documents to that fourth meeting and we can show them, kind of help them to fill about. We provide the sworn financial statements, their certificates of compliance, their memorandum of understanding, which is their mediated separation agreement, their marital balance sheet, their maintenance worksheet, child support worksheet, parenting plan, holiday schedule, daily parenting plan, and shared expense worksheets.

 

Leslie Garske [00:36:13]:

 

So we provide, I think, most of the heavy lifting.

 

Lora [00:36:15]:

 

Yes.

 

Leslie Garske [00:36:16]:

 

And then they bring a few of the pro se documents, like their case information sheet, their petition, and they haven’t filed yet. I don’t know if we really we didn’t point that out yet, but in our process, we file at the end so there’s no court deadlines, there’s no pressure. It’s like we’re going to go through this process. You’re going to be able to have time to think about things. And by the end of the process, when you decide what this deal is going to look like and what you’re saying yes to and what you’re saying no to, then you file with the court. You can act divorced and basically 91 days later, the judge can look at it and sign off. So it’s really a low pressure situation. You’re not forced to sign anything at any time.

 

Leslie Garske [00:36:51]:

 

It’s at the very end, which is.

 

Lora [00:36:53]:

 

Huge because also then at the end of this, you could realize, you know what, this isn’t what I want. Yeah, I don’t think divorce is going to be good for us. This isn’t coming together the way I thought. I think we’re going to work on it and then, you know, and I think it helps make the decision because so many people talk about second guessing their decisions, whether it’s to stay or to go. And this way you’re moving through the process with low risk, you’re both involved in it. And at the end of the day, you’re either going to know, this was the absolute right decision for me, and now we’re going to go forward with it, or for some reason or another, this is not the right decision for me. And I know that too.

 

Leslie Garske [00:37:39]:

 

That’s good. Yeah, that’s a really good point. Because a lot of people ask about legal separation. Yes, legal separation is the same process. You do all the division of the property, you do the parenting plan, everything is the same. And you get to the pro se documents, and there’s only one document that you do a little differently. It’s a petition for dissolution of marriage or legal separation. And you just check the box, legal separation.

 

Leslie Garske [00:38:01]:

 

And I have a couple right now that’s contemplating this. They’re not sure divorce is the right thing. Their kids are very young and they’re just like, maybe we should just try this on. And then how it works is once the legal separation is approved by the judge, then you have six months after well, at least six months. You can wait two years. But once the legal separation is approved after six months, after that period of time, then one person can say, all right, I do want a divorce, and everything sticks. All of those decisions are already made. You don’t go back and renegotiate.

 

Leslie Garske [00:38:32]:

 

So if someone is doing legal separation, you got to understand it’s going to stick, the decisions you’re making. You don’t go back and have a second chance, really, unless the other person agrees to it. But they might not. So you got to know what you’re signing.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:38:43]:

 

Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. So then what is the benefit of a legal separation versus just saying we’re going to live separately for a while and figure this out?

 

Leslie Garske [00:38:54]:

 

Well, the legal separation is going to delineate who owns what, whose assets are going to whom, and then what are you paying and what the child support and maintenance are. So I think when someone just says we’re going to live apart for a while, they’re still financially entangled. Usually everything is still married. There’s no cut off date for when it stopped being marital. And the legal separation really spells out all those details, especially like if they’re like the people. I’ve had people, though, that didn’t do a legal separation, but they did just want space apart. And so they came in and we did some mediation just on who’s going to pay for what expenses on the house. And maybe if they do some shared parenting, if one’s going to move out, how are they going to pay for both homes, how are they going to pay for the kids expense and how are they going to do the parenting.

 

Leslie Garske [00:39:37]:

 

And they really go through with any legal documents they did come up with a memorandum of understanding, which is a mediated agreement that can be filed to be enforceable by the court. But it’s not like a divorce or anything. It’s just an agreement that they come up with. And I’ve had couples do that and try to figure out what they really, really want before they actually do a divorce. And you know what?

 

Lora Cheadle [00:40:01]:

 

There’s power in that too. There’s a lot of power in that. And I think sometimes people fail to understand how powerful it is to actually connect with a third party, whether it’s a divorce financial planner, whether it’s a mediator, but to actually bring in that third party and to be like, you know what? We are making some decisions because it holds you both accountable to move forward and it does change your behavior. And I think it also ups the level of respect sometimes for the other party because we were in this marriage, we were in this relationship, we have been entangled. And it’s just formalizing what we’re going to do next without really making a decision. It’s just formalizing that things do need to change. Something has changed here. Everything’s different.

 

Leslie Garske [00:40:54]:

 

Yes. And the couples that I’ve taken through well, that I’ve gone through that process with have such a level of integrity. It’s amazing because they’re like, there is a third person there. They are on their best behavior and they’re making agreements. They’re going to have to probably not that they have to face me again or the mediator, but they stated that this is what they were going to do. And there’s something about that that most people want to be held accountable and be true to their word and be honorable, especially when there’s children involved. And so, yeah, it is good to have all that with a third person and formalize it in a way that everybody understands and knows what the expectations are. That’s the biggest key, too, is just the expectations.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:41:33]:

 

Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of the people that I work with would like to rebuild their marriage. They would like to rebuild trust. They would like to have some understanding. And even though it sounds like so, why would leaning into divorce make me go back to my marriage? It ups the accountability. It is like you talked about, it’s the expectations and it’s the integrity. And if you can just mediate some sort of a settlement with your partner, it can let you see, are they really committed to this? Do they have integrity? Are they capable of being trustworthy and honest? And I think it can also help rebuild the trust in the relationship, as contrary as that might sound.

 

Leslie Garske [00:42:25]:

 

I agree, because then you’re making the choice. They’re making a choice to be there. They’re making the choice to make sure that you have your expenses paid for, because that’s what you’re going to look at, right, is how is everybody going to live and how are they going to move forward and how is it going to work as parents and what are we going to do and share? What values do we have for our kids? How much screen time are we going to let them have? When are they going to get their cell phones? All that kind of stuff. You’re still partners in so many things that, yeah, it would be a good preview to kind of see how that all goes before you decide.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:42:54]:

 

Yeah. Because if somebody is truly incapable of doing some of these things, that’s really good feedback, and I’d rather know that now and then be able to move forward with the divorce than spend several years trying to rebuild something only to find out that they have no integrity.

 

Leslie Garske [00:43:11]:

 

Yeah, that is good to kind of know now. That’s right.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:43:14]:

 

Yeah. Okay, so one of the other things is this whole certified divorce financial planner. What is the difference between just a financial planner or a financial person and a certified divorce financial planner? Why should people care about the difference?

 

Leslie Garske [00:43:31]:

 

Well, that’s good. So I was a financial planner before I became a certified divorce financial analyst, and it’s a certification that helps you understand how it works in divorce capital gains. I mean, which stuff that we also know as a financial planner. But I think when it comes to dividing assets and debts, there’s a lot that goes on and then how to count your income and how do the courts view different things. So it definitely just gives you a little more of a perspective on the legal ramifications for a divorce, and it just gives us a lot more just competency level on what it’s like in the divorce arena. I mean, I have a lot of financial planners that I used to work with that were colleagues, and they’re like, oh, divorce. Oh, go over to Leslie and then come back. It’s just a whole different ballgame when you’re dividing people’s assets and debts rather than just doing that investment planning.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:44:20]:

 

Right. So is that something that people could just reach out and have somebody look at their assets again for an educational purpose to figure out? It’s not like you have to be filing for divorce in order to find a certified divorce financial analyst. Correct?

 

Leslie Garske [00:44:37]:

 

Yes. And that’s what we do. So there’s two ways I kind of do the settlement consultation. One is just through people who are curious, if I decided to divorce, what would it look like? They haven’t told their spouse, like you said, and they’ll come in and it’s like $325 for a 90 minutes session. And they come out feeling they’ll get a lot of information on how divorce works, but also what their specific property settlement and maintenance and child support might look like and how it works in Colorado and, like, for parenting and all that stuff, that you get a lot of questions answered. And then they might not ever call me again. I never see them again. They move on their way, and things get better, and things are fine.

 

Leslie Garske [00:45:12]:

 

The way I work is with attorneys. So there’s attorneys out there that have and I was going to say, we didn’t really talk about the kind of clients that are good for our process are ones that can sit down and talk to each other. There’s not a big power imbalance. If there’s a huge like, if someone doesn’t even know anything about the finances, it doesn’t mean they can’t learn. And that the spouse might not bring all of the documents. And we feel very satisfied. That is common. But if someone feels like there’s no trust, there’s no way.

 

Leslie Garske [00:45:41]:

 

I’ve had clients where they’ve started in mediation, and when one of the spouses realizes there has to be maintenance, they’re so angry and so vindictive, they’d rather pay a lawyer $100,000 than give their spouse a penny. That’s the dynamic that we don’t do. That’s the and it’s funny because the family law attorneys that I work with, they’re like, you know what, Leslie? We love what you do, because there’s plenty of people who hate each other out there, and we’re doing fine. We got plenty of business with the people who hate each other. So we really have the people that really want to keep their relationship with some integrity and keep the friendship somehow, and we have a working relationship for the kids. Those are our clients. But so when I’m talking about the attorney clients, when there’s someone out there that’s just high conflict, could be dog eat dog, and they’re like, is this settlement package a good thing for me? My lawyer says this is how much maintenance I should take. My lawyer says that this is a good thing for me to keep the house.

 

Leslie Garske [00:46:41]:

 

Or they’re following the advice of a lawyer. The lawyers might be right on, but a lot of times they just want a second set of eyes to make sure that someone else agrees. Like, okay, a financial person and a lawyer, okay, I’ve got two people that are in a certified divorce. Financial analyst to me, is going to give you a lot better input than a regular financial planner, because we know the ins and outs of divorce. We know what you might be entitled to versus just what the general state of earning interest on it and certain investment or whatever. We can look at the whole package and say, okay, that bonus that your spouse is getting the restricted stock units and how they’re granting and when they’re granted and when they’re going to pay out, yes, this would be a good way to structure this. This is the best thing for you, or, no, maybe you should ask for more of this rather than that and kind of give them some input like that and try to work with their attorney. So we really try to team up with lawyers when the spouse or the client doesn’t feel as confident about the finances.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:47:41]:

 

Yeah, and that totally makes sense because like you said earlier, hopefully you don’t get divorced ten and 15 times and you don’t become an expert and know how to look at it on your own. You don’t know what you’re doing. I don’t care how educated we are, how much we read what we know. Not everybody can know everything about everything. And it is nice to have a second or a third set of eyes on things. And I also really appreciate what you said about the kinds of couples that you work with and how they have to be able to sit down, how there does have to be that level of integrity or care. And I want to call out listeners, too. Not that I’m calling you out, like, in a bad way, but divorce isn’t the place to get even with your spouse.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:48:28]:

 

It’s just not what it’s about. That’s an emotional thing. That’s what I’m here for as your betrayal recovery coach. That’s what a therapist is there for. That’s what all this personal growth journaling, whatever, that’s what that is for. But divorce is a legal transaction. It is a legal transaction. It will impact the rest of your life, it will impact the rest of your spouse’s life, and it will impact the rest of your kids life.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:49:02]:

 

It just will. Divorce is the place to be in integrity. It’s the place to really focus, to be fair, and yes, to also stand up for yourself, to advocate on your own behalf. But it’s not the place to get even with somebody.

 

Leslie Garske [00:49:24]:

 

That’s really good. Yeah, that’s really good because you’ve got to look back and look at yourself in the mirror. And that’s why we try so hard to make sure people understand what they’re saying. No and yes to. But yeah, if it was about getting back a revenge, then it’s just not going to go anywhere. It’s just going to get ugly.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:49:39]:

 

No. And that’s where you are going to spend a heck of a lot of money on attorneys fees, and the attorneys are going to get rich. And at the end of the day, you’re not going to feel any better about it. You’re just not.

 

Leslie Garske [00:49:52]:

 

And it’s so interesting that I’ll have couples that will come, maybe come for initial consultation. They end up getting we look at their settlement, what that looks like, that could end up looking like 50 50 and some maintenance. And they’ll all sometimes get to see them again after they’ve decided to go to attorneys might have cost them oh, my gosh, tens of thousands of dollars to have pretty much the same outcome they would have if they would have gone through our process. But they just feel more powerful because they’ve got a lawyer barking it out for them or fighting for them. And I get that a lot. I get it. But I also think, oh, it can be. So take such an emotional toll to be in a legal battle that would take up to a year or more to get through.

 

Leslie Garske [00:50:35]:

 

And you’re constantly writing checks to your attorney. And you got the same settlement that you would have if you would have gutted it through for an eight to ten week process with us, where it might be scary to sit down, but at least you’re probably going, to have a very similar outcome and spend much less money, much less emotional time on your emotions there for the shorter period in our process.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:50:56]:

 

Yeah, absolutely. And what I also appreciate about your process is it’s broken down. So, okay, I have to think about property, but I can let the rest go. Okay, now I have to think about finances, but I can let the rest go. Okay, now I’m thinking about the kids, but I can let the rest go. Then you’ve got that time. We can put it together at the end. We can continue to process.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:51:17]:

 

I can try this on, and I can sit with it for a long time before I decide to file, if I decide to file. And then if I choose a separation or a divorce, it can be a really powerful way to even the scales as well, because now you both know, now everybody knows what they’ve got, what they don’t have, and what they need to do going forward.

 

Leslie Garske [00:51:44]:

 

Yeah, exactly.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:51:46]:

 

So where can people learn more about you, about your workshop, so they can just get more information, whether or not they’re contemplating divorce? Where can they learn more about all of this?

 

Leslie Garske [00:51:56]:

 

So our website is www.garskymediation.com. And my last name is spelled G-A-R-S as in Sam K E Garsky. I’m Leslie Garsky. So garskymediation.com. And that shows all about our non attorney mediation process and our settlement consultations. And that is a great way. You can register for the workshop through that or schedule appointments. We also do a free 20 minutes call.

 

Leslie Garske [00:52:24]:

 

I have an amazing intake coordinator named Wendy, and she’s fantastic. She does 20 minutes calls, often daily, and people call in and get some information just to see if our process might be good for them or if there’s a way we can be a resource for them. So that’s one avenue. Our boot camp workshops are run by a group called Divorceadvice Colorado. And so that’s divorceadvicecolorado.com. And that’s our team of experts, and they’re the ones who come to the workshops. We’ve got one on the second Saturday of each month, and it is sponsored by we participate with Second Saturday, which a lot of people have heard of. Therapists know it’s been around since the 90s empower people who are contemplating divorce.

 

Leslie Garske [00:53:07]:

 

So we do a Second Saturday workshop, and that’s in Littleton, or they can view it online. So if you’re somewhere even I’ve had people from Florida, Virginia view the workshop online because they. Get a lot of information, and it’s not always state specific. It’s kind of general information. And then we also are starting one in the lunch hour on the third Thursday in person in Castle Rock. We find that Saturdays can be great, but if you’ve got kids or you work on a Saturday, you can never come to our we’re going to start one in Castle Rock since that’s such a growing community down south in Colorado. And then you can also do it virtually. It’s going to be the third Thursday, I think, 1130 till 130 during the lunch hour.

 

Leslie Garske [00:53:47]:

 

That’s mountain time. And so divorceadvicecolorado.com. We’re also got meetup groups for both of those. So there’s different ways you can find us. But, yeah, those are the two ways through those two websites.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:53:58]:

 

Perfect. And I’ll put the links, too, and same thing. I don’t care where you’re at. Come get the advice. A lot of the advice is pretty standard advice, and if there’s a little tweak for your state, there’s a little tweak for your state. But I say take that action, take that step. This is you taking your power back, making a choice and just educating yourself. You’re not committed to anything, but make that choice.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:54:25]:

 

Take back some of your power and just choose to get educated. It’ll be an hour. It’s not a big deal, and it will really help you understand. Well, thank you so much, Leslie, for talking about your process, which listeners, I’ve been a part of her process. It’s a great process. I know Leslie. I’ve gone to these workshops. She does great work.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:54:48]:

 

So reach out if you’re in Colorado, get more information. If you’re not in Colorado, still view the workshops, check them out, educate yourself. And thank you again, Leslie.

 

Leslie Garske [00:55:00]:

 

Well, thank you for having me, Lora. I love the work that you do. You’re definitely a big help to a lot of the clients that we’ve had. So thank you.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:55:07]:

 

Yep, you’re welcome. Listeners, have an amazing week, and as usual, always remember to FLAUNT! exactly who you are, because who you are is always more than enough. This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. Have you been struggling lately? Relationship issues impact every area of your life. When I found out about my husband’s infidelity, I was so devastated I could barely function. Sleeping was impossible because I couldn’t shut off my brain. Eating was a challenge because I felt nauseous all the time. And for the first month or so, everything felt pointless.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:55:44]:

 

Whether you’re having trouble sleeping, feeling hopeless, or just can’t focus, BetterHelp is here to help you. BetterHelp offers licensed therapists who are trained to listen and help. You can talk to your therapist in a private online environment at your convenience. There’s a broad range of expertise in BetterHelp’s 20,000 plus Therapist network that gives you access to help that might not be available in your area. Just fill out a questionnaire to help assess your specific needs. And then you’ll be matched with a therapist in under 24 hours. Then you can schedule secure video and phone sessions. Plus you can exchange unlimited messages.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:56:25]:

 

And everything you share is completely confidential. I know that confidentiality was important for me, especially early on, when I couldn’t even get my own mind wrapped around what was happening. And it was so comforting to be able to speak with someone candidly about everything I was going through to validate that what I was feeling and experiencing was completely normal. You can request a new therapist at no additional charge anytime. Join the 2 million plus people who have taken charge of their mental health with an experienced BetterHelp therapist. Special offer to FLAUNT! create a life you love after Infidelity and Betrayal listeners. You get 10% off your first month@betterhelp.com FLAUNT!. That’s BetterHelp help.

 

Lora Cheadle [00:57:21]:

 

FLAUNT! F-L-A-U-N-T. Thanks again to BetterHelp for sponsoring this podcast. Tune in next time to FLAUNT!. Find your sparkle and create a life you love after Infidelity or Betrayal with radio host and live choreographer Lora Cheadle. Every Wednesday at 07:00 A.m and 07:00 P.m eastern time on syndicated Dream Vision Seven Radio Network. Develop naked self worth and reclaim your confidence, enthusiasm and joy so you can create a life you love and embrace who you are today. Download your free sparkle through Betrayal Recovery Guide@nakedselfworth.com.