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Lora Cheadle [00:00:01]:
You’re listening to Flaunt, find your sparkle and create a life you love after infidelity or betrayal. A podcast for women who’ve been betrayed by their intimate partner and want to turn their devastation into an invitation to reclaim them selves and their worth. Tune in weekly so you can start making sense of it all and learn how to be okay on the inside no matter what goes on on the outside. Download your free betrayal recovery toolkit at betrayalrecoveryguide.com.

Lora Cheadle [00:00:35]:
This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. Have you been struggling lately? Relationship issues impact every area of your life. When I found out about my husband’s infidelity, I was so devastated. I could barely function. Sleeping was impossible because I couldn’t shut off my brain. Eating was a challenge because I felt nauseous all the time, and for the 1st month or so, everything felt pointless. Whether you’re having trouble sleeping, feeling hopeless, or just can’t focus, BetterHelp is here to help you. BetterHelp offers licensed therapists who are trained to listen and help.

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Lora Cheadle [00:02:15]:
Special offer to FLAUNT!, create a life you love after infidelity and betrayal listeners. You get 10% off your 1st month at betterhelp.com/FLAUNT!. That’s betterhelphelp.com /FLAUNT!, f l a u n t. Thanks again to BetterHelp for sponsoring this podcast.

Lora Cheadle [00:02:51]:
Hello, and welcome to FLAUNT!, create a life you love after infidelity or betrayal. I’m Lora Cheadle, and today we are going to take a deep dive into forgiveness. And no matter what you think you know or you think you don’t know about forgiveness, I’d like you to come to this show with an open mind, with a sense of curiosity, because we’ve got a great, guest today. Her name is Dara McKinley, and her all of her work focuses on forgiveness. And instead of reading her bio to you, I am going to have her explain how she came at this, how she kind of discovered these steps in how to forgive. Because I think like many of us, she was tasked with needing to forgive in her life and kinda had that same problem that a lot of us have. Well, great. I know I should, but what does it really mean, and how do I do it? So with that, welcome to the show.

Lora Cheadle [00:04:03]:
I’m so excited to have you.

Dara McKinley [00:04:06]:
Thank you, Lora. I’m honored to be here. As you know, I’m a huge fan of your work, so this is a wonderful experience. Yeah. So I, was born I start with where I was born. I was born a very spiritual little girl and with a very I I’m not an unconditionally loving person, but I truly was born with a felt sense of unconditional love and, was raised to be a seeker to you know? And that’s essentially what I became. I started studying psychology and spirituality, in undergrad and have not stopped. I still study it today.

Dara McKinley [00:04:42]:
And in my in the early 2000, I had an idea for a business. And in my naive enthusiasm, I kinda jumped in with business partners who I would be, ultimately be incompatible with. However, the business took off. And so we kind of just endured each other for as long as we could, which was a nice number of years. And then in 2009, everything fell apart, and I was pushed out, and I lost my part in the business. And I was 50% relieved when that happens because this these relationships were very stressful. So when that moment came, I remember feeling like, it’s over. Thank goodness.

Dara McKinley [00:05:22]:
And then I was 50% heartbroken because the business was my brainchild. I poured so much into it, and it brought me a great sense of joy. It was a huge loss. So I was like, okay, Dara. At this point

Dara McKinley [00:05:33]:
in my life, I’d had 2 decades of studying psychology and spirituality behind me and working in the realm of mental health. I was a psychotherapist.

Dara McKinley [00:05:40]:
I had a graduate degree in Buddhism and psychology. So I was like, I will get through this. Like, this is a huge blow, but I am going to lean into my significant relationships. I’m gonna recreate my life. I’m gonna focus on gratitude. I’m gonna process my emotions, and, you know, I will move forward. So 3 years later, now we’re it’s 2012, I still noticed that I had a negative narrative, ruminating in my head. And during those 3 years, I was very close with a a a wise woman and, you know, crone type figure in my life who watched the whole thing go down with the business.

Dara McKinley [00:06:13]:
So she was aware of the story. And every, like, 6 to 9 months, her and I would talk about it, and I would just combust

Dara McKinley [00:06:18]:
Yeah.

Dara McKinley [00:06:19]:
And just unload all the details. And at she would listen to everything I had to say, just me with a complete compassionate heart. And at the end, she would say, you know, Dara, you might wanna consider forgiveness. And I would just bristle. Yes. I just would be like, oh my, her name was Fran. Hi, Fran. I love you.

Dara McKinley [00:06:38]:
Thank you if you would ever hear this podcast. And so I would just think to myself, like, didn’t you just hear everything I just said? And there was something about the word give that, I felt like I had lost this huge thing, so it just meant, like, giving more. And it felt like I was letting them off the hook. And so but we this happened like 2 or 3 times where her and I would combust and she would end the conversation. You might wanna consider forgiveness. So it’s 2012. I noticed I still have this negative narrative in my head, like, kind of when I’m washing the dishes and folding the laundry. I just noticed this loop happening about, like, that was so wrong.

Dara McKinley [00:07:14]:
How could they have gotten away with that? This is so unjust. And as this is happening, I’m sliding into a mystery illness, which is insomnia, fatigue, and anxiety. And the doctors can’t figure out what’s wrong with me, And I have a 3 year old and a 6 year old. So, like, the perfect storm is being created. And so it’s now October 2012, and I’m getting freaked out, that something’s really wrong with me that, you know, my kids need me. Like, I’m just starting, and it’s all exacerbating the symptoms. So as a very spiritual person, I’ve never called myself psychic, but I’m very intuitive, and I’m, good at having, come to Jesus moments, you know, where I can get down on my knees and say, I need a sign, like and you you need to guide me out. I when whatever you tell me to do, I will do.

Dara McKinley [00:08:09]:
Like, I was fully, like, making a deal. Like, this has reached a critical moment. Tell me. I will do it. And the message I got back was to forgive. And I immediately knew I had something to forgive. And once again, though so I I got the message, and I was like, woah. Yeah.

Dara McKinley [00:08:26]:
I definitely have something to forgive. And then the second thought was, there is no way that forgiveness can be the answer to these problems. Right. I bristled again like, oh, god. And I like a teenager rolling her eyes, like, you know, please. But within an hour, that message was so strong that I thought, okay, Dara. You love to try new things. You love alternative spirituality.

Dara McKinley [00:08:49]:
Get online. Find out who has written the 5 step how to forgive whatever. Right. Follow it for however long and check it out. What if it works? You know? Give it a shot. And so I get online, and I typed in how to forgive. And 99.9% of what came up was why a person should forgive and the teeny bit I could find about how, which was some person like me on some forum out there going, but how do you do it? They were met with you. Just do it.

Dara McKinley [00:09:20]:
That was what they were getting back. And so in this moment, I was like, okay. Woah. I’m on my own here. There is no 5 step.

Dara McKinley [00:09:29]:
How to

Dara McKinley [00:09:29]:
forgive thing. And so I was like, okay. I have 2 decades of psychology and spirituality behind me. If anyone can figure this riddle out, Dara, it’s you. You know? So and and you have been you know, you need to figure it out. It was like a health issue or so I thought at the time. And so I said, okay. What this was the question I asked myself that put my foot onto the forgiveness path.

Dara McKinley [00:09:54]:
I said, okay. I’ve been ruminating in this negative narrative for 3 years. What is the opposite of that rumination? And my answer to that question was, oh, I would bless this situation with the highest love.

Lora Cheadle [00:10:08]:
Mhmm.

Dara McKinley [00:10:08]:
And with with that answer, I took my first step. And over the next 48 hours, you know, a process just flooded into me that I followed over a a 3 week period. And it was a short practice, but it was, very, you know, merging kind of, like, everything I had learned up until that point. It just like all the tools came before me, and I just started grabbing and putting together kind of like an, you know, creating a piece of art. 3 weeks later, I felt a peace that I hadn’t felt in 3 years. And I had 2 thoughts that unknowingly would change my life. The first one was, wow. Forgiveness is for real.

Dara McKinley [00:10:49]:
Because, you know, up until this point, I’m a geek for healing modalities. Right? Right. So I’m like, woah. It’s a legitimate healing modality. Like, it it this cleared this tremendous thing from my body completely. Wow. And then the second thought was, and that wasn’t pardoning. Why does everyone say forgiveness is pardoning? Right.

Dara McKinley [00:11:09]:
And I didn’t think anything else more of it. I just was like, whoo. Figured that out. You know? Thank goodness and went forward with my life, happy that I had this new incredible tool for healing and regeneration. And over the next 2 years, I started talking to people, watching the mainstream narrative on forgiveness, and and going deeper and deeper into the practice of, like I was so excited. I was like, oh, can I forgive this thing that happened? Let me try it. You know? And I just started playing with it. You know? Like, can it tackle that? Can it is are some things that I started asking all these questions and just looking at it from every angle that I could.

Dara McKinley [00:11:45]:
Mhmm. And here I am today.

Dara McKinley [00:11:49]:
Because I think there’s so much when we’re just open to receive those divine downloads. It’s powerful. It’s really powerful. And when we can experience it ourself and then just kind of be aware. And I just wanna say kudos to you, props to you for doing all that because I feel like I had a similar journey, you know, in the betrayal recovery thing. There aren’t steps there. And the things that people tell you to do oftentimes don’t work, and then you can even see these threads online. This didn’t work.

Dara McKinley [00:12:19]:
That didn’t work. And people are like, yeah. Well, try harder. Pray harder.

Dara McKinley [00:12:22]:
Right. It’s just, it it’s it’s kind of just keeping us in the realm of ego. Right? It’s like it’s like seeing it as a problem that needs to be solved in some or solved or fixed in some linear way when as, you know, your work so beautifully dictates, it’s actually, a soul issue.

Dara McKinley [00:12:39]:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So so many things about forgiveness. Can you define what you feel forgiveness is? Because I think we’ve talked a little bit about what it’s not, but can you tell us what it truly is?

Dara McKinley [00:12:56]:
So forgiveness is one’s ability to access and apply unconditional love. And the second part of the definition is one’s ability to, identify what needs it. And once those two skills come together, forgiveness and, you know, and our practice over a short period of time, forgiveness prevails.

Lora Cheadle [00:13:18]:
I love that. Okay. Let’s start from the beginning of that. One’s ability to access unconditional love. Say more about that because I think some people might be thinking, well, I unconditionally love my cat or I unconditionally love my children. What do you mean by accessing it? What how how do I just do that? There might be a little bit of a disconnect there. So can you explain

Dara McKinley [00:13:48]:
Right.

Dara McKinley [00:13:48]:
How we access it?

Dara McKinley [00:13:49]:
So this is how I I explain it. Unconditional love is a spiritual love that’s flowing through us and for us in this human realm, which is a conditional place. Yes. This is. There’s there’s no getting away from that. And so, yes, like, what I’m saying, like, you have to view it spiritually because if you try to wrap your head around it from, like, what’s actually in front of us here, this is a conditional place, and it’s gonna reflect back to you conditionally. It’s not gonna reflect back to you unconditional love. So there are people like me, as I said, I was born feeling it.

Dara McKinley [00:14:25]:
So when I asked that question that night, I said, what’s the opposite? The opposite is blessing with the highest love. Yes. I could easily reach for the highest love because I have felt it, and there are people like me who just have this felt sense of it. And I also acknowledge that there are people there are a lot of people who don’t have a felt sense of it. However, it does flow forth in a person’s life, in their family, in their, you know, with their kids, with their cat, in nature is a huge place that, people experience it through passions and creativity. There it’s flowing through in so many ways. And so for the people who don’t have this felt sense of it, like I do, I invite people like, okay. So you need to identify where it’s happening and start paying attention to where it’s happening.

Dara McKinley [00:15:16]:
You know, between a mother and a baby is one of the most, what I call, acute places. Yes. Acute meaning intense, you know, where it is flowing through. And when you think of that paradigm spiritually, here comes this being that just arrived from the other side, and they not only beam it, they elicit it from the the the beings around them. Like, when you look at a newborn baby, there’s something that’s happening in your body even if you’re just the neighbor from down the street, when you see that being, you can feel this, like, divinity in your body. Mhmm. People who’ve had near death experiences going back to the spiritual perspective, all report merging with a tremendous love that’s, you know, unconditional. And meditation practer practitioners devoted meditation practitioners often talk about this experience of being completely enveloped in love.

Dara McKinley [00:16:09]:
And it’s actually like, the first time it happens, it’s unsettling because that’s, like, how vast and infinite this love is, and we’re merging it with it from a conditional realm. So the first time it happens, it’s like, woah. You know? What’s what’s going on here? But, you know, devoted meditation practitioners, it’s kind of like, you know, they say meditation doesn’t have a goal, but I would say that, you know, when those moments happen for them, like, that definitely keeps them in the game. It does. Because it’s showing them the nature of reality, the true nature of, you know, of what’s going on anyway.

Dara McKinley [00:16:41]:
Yeah. Very well said. And and for anybody listening, you’ve probably had that experience even if it’s short. Maybe you’re in church and something strikes you or you’re in the theater. So often. I mean, it sounds silly, but during Broadway musicals, the music, and I’ll just be like, oh, and Yes. You know, it it’s passionate. It hits you.

Dara McKinley [00:17:05]:
There are those moments everywhere and same thing. I love how you said nature. There’s I was just in Egypt. There were moments where you’re just, like, overwhelmed. Mhmm.

Dara McKinley [00:17:14]:
Right.

Dara McKinley [00:17:14]:
Oh, yeah.

Dara McKinley [00:17:15]:
So so that’s medicine. That’s medicine. It’s not just like, oh, that was some cool feeling I had at the theater or when I’m in nature. Like, yeah, that is part of it, you know, but it’s also medicinal. It’s a it’s a force that can be used to recover.

Dara McKinley [00:17:33]:
Yeah. I love that. I love that. And I really love in your definition that in our conversation that we have gotten away from romantic love because it is not unconditional romantic love that we’re talking about here. It’s not, I love you unconditionally. This is spiritual. So I really love Right. I I I really love that that is Yeah.

Dara McKinley [00:17:54]:
That can that can confuse people a lot for sure. You know, that’s definitely a very conditional realm as far as, you know, a very conditional world. And, you know, it has it has a lot to do. That’s it’s actually a very divine experience also, but in a completely different way because chemistry, you know, has a huge amount of divinity behind it.

Dara McKinley [00:18:11]:
Yes. Absolutely. So my question around that is since this is a show on infidelity and people who are experiencing something very painful.

Dara McKinley [00:18:21]:
Right.

Dara McKinley [00:18:21]:
What happens if you’re like, I get it, and I’ve had those moments, but I just found out 2 weeks ago, and there is no way I can access that kind of unconditional love right now because I’m on the floor in tears, let alone identify it to or apply it to this jerk who just blah blah blah blah blah blah. What do you suggest people do when they’re not in that place yet?

Dara McKinley [00:18:52]:
Well, to mainly use the medicine for yourself to get through that acute period. Like, don’t concern yourself with, and I don’t define forgiveness as pardoning. So I’m gonna say and I’m gonna distinguish that. Don’t real quick. I just need to preface that there are many, many people who have survived wars and atrocity who swear by the pardoning definition, and I believe them. You know? Because I do believe the pardoning definition works for some people. I’m of the demographic that it doesn’t work for, and I’m representing the demographic that it doesn’t work for. And I know that demographic is huge.

Dara McKinley [00:19:26]:
So I just wanna say, though, I really do bow to those people, and I’m not I’m inviting people to challenge that definition, but more than anything, I’m adding a definition. You know? But I want people to really, like, think about, like, pardoning and how that lands with them and if it’s really useful. Or if there’s something bigger, there’s another force. What is the force that enables pardoning? And that’s kind of what I’m trying to get people to connect to is that pardoning is an optional result of forgiveness or a potential result of forgiveness, but there’s actually a we can connect to the bigger force that enables that pardoning to happen. So with that said Yes. So and I want to identify, through you know? So I’ve been studying this forgiveness for over a decade, and I’ve identified 3 time frames and, that forgiveness can address. And one is episodic, which is an incident. And that’s when these, circumstances were intense, but they happened within a short period of time, and they are behind you.

Lora Cheadle [00:20:21]:
Yes.

Dara McKinley [00:20:21]:
The next is, epic. An epic is something that’s gone on for a long period of time, and that can be childhoods, you know, marriages, intergenerational trauma, like any, you know, a long stint at a job, anything that’s just been very difficult and gone on for a long period of time. And with that, time frame, people typically love the idea of forgiveness, because they know they’re kind of carrying the the pain of this big thing. But then they can immediately become overwhelmed by it and think too much has happened. I don’t know where I’d even begin. Like, you know, it’s too overwhelming. So anyway, we can return to that one because I have something to say about that. But then the third one, which is what you just brought up is enduring.

Dara McKinley [00:21:04]:
And enduring is when you’re in it and it’s you’re waking up to a daily challenge. And this can be, you know, having an experience, where you know, of infidelity. This can be a chronic illness. This can be co parenting with a difficult ex. You know? Just any issue you wake up in the morning and you face. Yes. So with that one, I tell people that you you forgive in that time frame to stay connected to the higher path, to clear emotional burdens from your body. And the more we clear emotional burdens for our body, the greater access we have to intuition, which is gonna kinda be, like, the greatest guiding force when we’re in those moments.

Dara McKinley [00:21:50]:
Like, we really are you know, anyone who’s in that situation needs to make a 100 really difficult decisions, 1,000 maybe. Right?

Dara McKinley [00:21:58]:
Oh, yes.

Dara McKinley [00:21:59]:
Right? And so you want those decisions to be for the highest outcome and for the highest good, and it’s our intuitive ability that will lead us there. And it’s our ability to move strong emotions, circulate strong emotions through that reveal that ability. So, when someone you in other words, I do get emails from people who’ve experienced intense ruptures and who kind of, like, desperately write to me, like, can forgiveness, you know, make this go away? You know, can I forgive this away? And I’m like, you know, like No. Right. Right now, you wanna get support. You wanna process what happens. You wanna do the soul work, you know, that you so beautifully guide people to do. You want to, you know, go deep about how you this situation has arisen in your life and how you’re gonna get through.

Dara McKinley [00:22:52]:
And forgiveness is an amazing tool for doing that, but you’re not just gonna forgive it away. You know? And, but it’s I say that it’s like, in those moments, you get sent into the stormiest sea. Right? And forgiveness is the boat with the life jacket and the supplies. You know? And it’s and it helps keep a person afloat as they go through this, what I call, and I think you would agree, a soul’s curriculum for whatever the reason in this life.

Dara McKinley [00:23:21]:
Yes. Absolutely. And I love that analogy, and I love that you just say you just don’t forgive it away. And the other thing I wanna talk about because this this does come up a lot too. Okay. I I do I just forgive? Like, I’m gonna forgive on Friday. I’m gonna learn these 5 steps, and I will forgive on Friday, and then it’s totally over. You know? Like, I know that you have forgiven some big things.

Dara McKinley [00:23:45]:
How long does that take? What is the work like? How how does one begin this process of flagging down this lifeboat, getting themselves in the lifeboat.

Dara McKinley [00:23:59]:
Right. Well, you can get yourself in the lifeboat immediately. Right? And so, and and as I said, like, focus more on applying the unconditional love to yourself because these ruptures assault our energy body. Right? And that’s like so, you know, for example, if you experienced an infidelity, but, you know, it’s different for everybody, but I’m gonna assume that a huge hole got created in your heart. Right? So and that’s going to really influence your mental realm and what you think about yourself and what you think about life and how you’re gonna go forward and how you’re gonna get through your day. Right? So you want to apply the medicine to yourself and to that heart center Yeah. So that you can get through the day. And, you know, we we get that support from our girlfriends, from our therapists, from our amazing coaches, you know, but we need to also be able to give it to ourselves.

Dara McKinley [00:25:02]:
Right? Like, relationships are an amazing way of getting it, but if they’re not, sustainable and they’re not there at 3 o’clock in the morning when you wake up, you know, feeling flooded by, the abandonment or the betrayal that just happened. Right? So you can get in the boat at any time. You just wanna make sure that, you’re focusing on keeping your energy system as clear and moving. I would clear is kind of a huge objective in those moments, but as you want it to circulate as much as possible, so that you can stand up in the morning and and face the next day.

Dara McKinley [00:25:38]:
Yeah. I really appreciate what you’re saying about circulating it, processing it, moving the emotions through because it isn’t about stuffing them down, and it isn’t about hiding under the covers until they go away. It’s moving it through. And I also really appreciate those three stages, the enduring. You’re in it now. You’re figuring it out now. Maybe like that epic, you start realizing, like, in my case, oh, wait. This has been going on for 15 years.

Dara McKinley [00:26:07]:
I didn’t know that. And then it’s this big shift in understanding of, like, is that too much to forgive? Because people do say that to me. People listening to the show will really resonate with that space. Is this too much? He cheated with x number of people for x is that too much? So how much is too much?

Dara McKinley [00:26:30]:
So, this is the hard news, good news thing. I don’t think everything is pardonable or excusable. Mhmm. I do think anything is forgivable, because unconditional love really is unconditional. And it has zero ability to withhold itself from whatever is placed in its path. And that’s what you’re doing essentially when you forgive. You’re taking this difficult thing that happened, and you’re placing it in the path of unconditional love so it can work its medicinal magic on this thing. It’s like sunshine.

Dara McKinley [00:27:13]:
Sunshine has zero ability to withhold itself from whatever in its in path, and that’s kind of one of the best metaphors for understanding how unconditional love works. A huge store a huge issue that has gone on for years and feels insurmountable and mammoth, Where is that right now in this present moment? It’s in an energy in our bodies. Yep. That’s where it is. The, you know, the past is gone. You know? But the energy in our bodies is still there. So what we need to work with in order to move forward from what happened is right here, right now in the present moment. Mhmm.

Dara McKinley [00:27:58]:
And I teach people also that, you know, forgiveness is a function of the right hemisphere of the brain, which does not get its merits in Western society at all. I I had someone so beautifully say to me recently that the right hemisphere of the brain is for weekends, holidays, and vacations. But the right hemisphere of the brain actually has all the skills we need in order to create forgiveness. And so this is one of the big things they teach people in the course is that you’re anatomically designed to do this. These are the skills that we’re gonna bring together in order to make this happen, and that hemisphere of the brain knows what needs to be forgiven and in what order. And so typically with the epic time frame so let’s say you just wanna forgive your partner’s 15 years of infidelity. Right? That’s this huge thing. You know, you would and if, you know, again, like, people get surprised once they tap into the right hemisphere of their brain.

Dara McKinley [00:28:54]:
They can come into my course thinking, I need to forgive this. And then they tap into this part of their brain, and they’re like, oh, why does that keep coming up? And it’s like, actually, that’s your soul wants you to do that one first. You know? But most of the time, people are spot on because I tell people it really is the thing that is bothering you the most is what you should begin with. Mhmm. So, and then so let’s say you do that, and it’s you know, if as as long as the trauma is behind you, if you’re still getting pummeled by someone’s one’s by someone’s bad behavior Yeah. If you’re still getting pummeled by someone’s bad behavior, you’re in an enduring time frame. You know? Like and that’s about boundaries and, you know, that’s about other stuff. But if it’s behind you and you forget you go through the 3 week process I teach to forgive that.

Dara McKinley [00:29:42]:
What typically happens with a time frame that’s that huge is that down the line, however long, or maybe as you’re doing the forgiveness process, another layer of what happened will come up that says, okay. Once you’re done with this, I like, so for example, I forgave my my father’s familial legacy, and it was huge and beautiful and incredible, and I felt completely liberated from it. But then here 10 years later, there was this one behavior that occurred in my household, you know, throughout my childhood that created a very skew you know, that contributed to me having a false perception of the world. And so that was, like, another layer of my father’s legacy that needed to be addressed. So with the epic time frame, it’s like you think about it that, yeah, you’re not just gonna, like, boom, be free from something that’s gone on that long. You are going to be free from the huge piece of it, you know, if you want, but but anticipate layers coming forward as you move into life. You know? And Yes. Once you realize how cool and effective forgiveness is, when another thing comes up, you’re like, great.

Dara McKinley [00:30:47]:
You’re in that way. That’s how I am at this point. You know? I’m like, alright. Let’s go after this one. You know?

Dara McKinley [00:30:54]:
Yes. Yes. And I so see see why see why she’s amazing. See why she’s amazing listeners. This one is amazing because it is layered life. We think we’ve healed something and then we haven’t, and then we have

Lora Cheadle [00:31:08]:
maladaptive behaviors that go on top of that. And then we think this is okay, but then it’s really not.

Dara McKinley [00:31:11]:
That. And then we think this is okay, but then

Lora Cheadle [00:31:13]:
it’s really not. And it is

Dara McKinley [00:31:14]:
that layering and it is a forgiveness layering. And I love the analogy of sunshine because it isn’t, I’m so happy that you did this, and I don’t care that you did this. It’s it’s none of that. It’s just letting that love in, and I I really appreciate that. And I really also appreciate your honesty that when you’re in the middle of it, okay, we can reach for it, but it’s a little bit different. It’s there’s not spiritual bypassing here. There isn’t just putting a little happy band aid on it and saying, I forgive you. It’s all good.

Dara McKinley [00:31:49]:
It’s not that. And that’s what I love so much about your work and your the way you talk about this. It’s real. And that’s why I think sometimes people get a bad taste in their mouth and bristle like you used to around forgiveness because it has been sold to us sometimes as a happy little story and that we’re a real big person if we can just let it go. And that’s not what it is.

Dara McKinley [00:32:16]:
Right. And you know, when you’re flooded with huge emotions, hearing, let it go, just stop being angry, just pardon them, just have compassion for them. Like, I’m actually a very compassionate person, and, you know, I can feel what other people are feeling as soon as they walk in the room. I have a huge degree of empathy. Right. And when you’re flooded with really strong emotions, those messages, like, can make somebody feel like, oh, now I’m a spiritual failure. And so I just wanna say and and there’s nothing wrong with you if you don’t feel like you can do any of those things while you’re managing the aftermath of some huge rupture. And I wanna illuminate this, with a story that, you know, one of the most popular stories is Jesus on the cross.

Dara McKinley [00:33:01]:
As he’s being crucified, he looks up and says, forgive them, father, for they know not what they do. And so many people cite this story because he walked his talk up to the very last moments of his life and, you know, came forward to forgive the people who were killing him. Right? Huge huge act of grace. Right? However, what I think is so interesting about that story is that he actually delegated. He actually looked up and said, father god, can you forgive these guys?

Dara McKinley [00:33:32]:
Yes. And

Dara McKinley [00:33:32]:
if you had asked him in that moment, he would have been like, I have I’m dying right now. Like, I have nothing in me, but I know something, what he called father God, what I refer to as unconditional love. I know something that can, and I know how to enlist it and call upon it and and have it be applied to these men right now in this moment. And so I tell people, like, forgiveness is not your ability to be unconditionally loving during Yeah. An incredibly difficult time in your life. Forgiveness is your ability to enlist unconditional love. You know? And even though at our essence, we are this love, we gotta get practical and user friendly when we’re in a in the depths of a soul’s curriculum. Yes.

Dara McKinley [00:34:16]:
And the most practical and user friendly thing to understand at that time is that it’s something that you can access, and that can help you through. And it’s okay that you are in an emotional storm, and you don’t have the bandwidth for high minded spirituals.

Dara McKinley [00:34:33]:
Yes. Not now. Right. Yeah. Not now. And I also appreciate that because, and listeners will know from listening to my show, oftentimes I say forgiveness is really one of the last steps. It’s not that we have infidelity and we forgive them and it goes away. No.

Dara McKinley [00:34:51]:
We do the soul work. We do the spiritual work. We understand things. We talk. We learn. We grow. Forgiveness is something at the end. And I really appreciate in your story, you had this bad experience.

Dara McKinley [00:35:03]:
You made the best of it. You parted ways. And then later you realize during these mundane tasks, during the laundry, during the dishes, the story is still on repeat. There’s a loop. Something is stuck. That’s such a clue. Something is stuck.

Dara McKinley [00:35:22]:
Oh, yeah. A negative narrative, is is an unseen emotional world as far as, you know, as as how I define it at this, point. Oh, one that’s looping. When someone’s looping in something, I just look down at their body and think like, okay. There’s something that needs to be seen intended to. Mhmm. And it’s you know, people, you know, across the board see that once they do that piece, all of a sudden, the negative narrative loses its hold.

Dara McKinley [00:35:51]:
Yes. So let’s get into some of the details. You have this 3 week process, and we’ve talked about, okay, it it’s accessing unconditional love, which is understanding what it is, making sure you’re in the place, identifying the situation that it needs to be applied to. But say more about the how. How do we go about doing that?

Dara McKinley [00:36:11]:
So the first thing I have people do is have their own embodied experience of unconditional love because that is the source. Right? If you’re not feeling it circulate in your body, you’re not gonna be able to apply it. So that’s what we talked about in the beginning. I get people to start noticing where it’s happening and how to feel it inside their bodies. And then the second piece I teach, I then we go right into learning how to apply it and how to use the right hemisphere of the brain, and what it’s capable of, and, we create a practice of applying it. Then the then we move into so that’s the first part of the definition, the

Dara McKinley [00:36:48]:
Yes.

Dara McKinley [00:36:48]:
Practical application of unconditional love. Then we move into the 2nd part of the definition, which is, identifying exactly what needs it. And that’s where I teach people. So, I I very much see the world through the lens of these four realms, and it’s the realm of action, thought, the realm of practicality, the physical, the realm of the physical, and the realm of, emotion. Yeah. And each of these realms need something in order to do what it’s designed to do. And so the realm of action needs freedom. The realm of thought needs information.

Dara McKinley [00:37:25]:
The realm of, the physical realm needs resources, and the realm of emotion needs to be seen. And so I t and once it’s seen, it circulates. And I teach people, 3 different practices for seeing their emotions in their body. And a lot of times, actually, when they’re seen, they also dispel. Dispel. But I’m just like, if if if if it dispels, fantastic. That’s, like, that’s amazing. But I at the very base level, I’m just going for emotional circulation because emotions, like, you know, are an anatomical system, all anatomical systems need to circulate.

Dara McKinley [00:38:08]:
Right? They all need to move. If an anatomical system doesn’t move, problems happen, and emotions are no exception. And emotions can actually cause some of the biggest problems in our life if they’re not circulating. And so I kind of I want this to be like brushing your teeth. You know? Just a mundane thing. We all have this emotional realm. It needs to move. It’s not who we are.

Dara McKinley [00:38:29]:
It’s this, energy that’s actually informing us in many, many beautiful ways once we go into relationship with it. And so how do we apply the what I call vitamin c? It’s the thing that it needs to get it moving. And then, actually, once you get it moving, the experience of unconditional love can saturate at a deeper and deeper level. Because if there’s anything like blocking that love, it’s emotional congestion. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Dara McKinley [00:39:01]:
Okay. Let’s let’s go a little deeper around the whole idea of circulating an emotional congestion and get it moving. Because I know a lot of the listeners understand because I do a lot of the somatic body work, and we physically move the body in order to sometimes shake up the emotions. But I think sometimes there’s confusion around that for people. Like, what does it mean? Do I have to go scream at people? Do I have to go punch my pillow? I think there’s sometimes confusion around what is emotional circulation and what does it mean to get those things moving? So can you talk more about that?

Dara McKinley [00:39:42]:
Yes. So I kinda first, I wanna start with just giving a frame about the emotional world that I know how intense it can get, and I do not wanna speak of it lately. I’m a perimenopausal woman. I know how intense the emotional world can get. And I also wanna say that it’s particularly intense because we’re kind of all swimming, you know, in a boat by ourselves. I mean, not to go back to the I don’t wanna confuse the boat analogy, but we are not taught the very practical skills. Like, you know, most people haven’t really heard that it needs to be seen, you know, and that that’s like this magic, sauce that that gets it moving. So it’s a particularly harrowing experience in Western society because we do not we are not taught the kind of basic things that this world experience, natural human experience that all people are having need in order to access its magic.

Dara McKinley [00:40:40]:
Right? Yeah. The second thing is I wanna also say that at its highest expression, the emotional realm, and I’m talking like the most difficult ones, including the most difficult ones, are a a vestibule or a passageway that once we have the courage, the skills, you know, once we I say that, you know, unconditional love is like a sword and a shield. You know? Like, I wouldn’t traverse a a strong emotional world without my sword and my shield. Right. So once we have, like, the equipment and the and the perspective to traverse it, it actually is so illuminating in terms of intuition in our deepest personal truth. And I don’t know why it got set up this way in this incarnation that this is the experience that humans need to, have the courage to do in order to access those incredibly deep and powerful places of ourselves. But without fail, that’s what happens. Right? So Yes.

Dara McKinley [00:41:38]:
With that said, wait. Can you please bring me back to the original question? Oh, I I’ve oh, here. I got it. Okay. And then I wanna also, like, put our our 2 year olds like, I wanna give them the medals they deserve because 2 year olds are such a gorgeous, example of emotional health. Right? When a 2 year old has a tantrum, you cannot reason, you cannot fix, you can’t even really contain it.

Dara McKinley [00:42:07]:
No.

Dara McKinley [00:42:07]:
If you try to do those three things to a 2 year old, you just inflame the 2 year old. However, if you say to the 2 year old, for example, oh, I am so sorry that stick broke. You immediately you will get these gorgeous 2 year old eyes looking at you and an exhale and go. You know? And then if you dare to take it and and what else about the stick? You know? It was my favorite stick. Oh, I know. What else? So if you see the 2 year old, if you pour vitamin c into this 2 year old, you will see an immediate decompression happen and the emotional realm begin to circulate. And if if you try other, approaches, it will inflame and just you know, they aren’t you know, that reputation that they have today of kind of being nightmares. The second thing is that 2 year olds move, and they just move instinctively, and they have no shame.

Dara McKinley [00:43:03]:
They it’s just complete unabashed, just letting their body move exactly how it needs to move. And so if they need to stomp and kick their feet and do whatever they need, exactly how it needs to move. And so if they need to stomp and kick their feet and do whatever, they’re discharging the energy. And it’s it’s actually gorgeous. As annoying it can be to be happening in the supermarket, they’re actually being very emotionally pure and healthy.

Dara McKinley [00:43:22]:
Yes.

Dara McKinley [00:43:22]:
And then the third thing is that they create whatever they want to create, again, without any self consciousness, without, any judgment about, the substances. My daughter would, you know, go to her daycare, and she would take the paint, and she would draw a black circle onto the thing. And the the woman would encourage her, like, and what else? And she’d be like, no. That’s it. Done. Yeah. And she’d put it down. So they’re so pure and, in their process.

Dara McKinley [00:43:54]:
And there’s just, like so when I tell people to see their emotional rounds, it kinda it’s never, you’re never hurting another person. You’re never hurting yourself. You’re never, you don’t need to let anybody have it. You know? Like, that’s not seeing your emotional realm. That’s actually, like, putting it forth onto somebody else. But I have, like as I’m looking to my left right now, I have a a 4 by 8 mat in there. Yes. And when I feel a lot of, emotional, congestion or, you know, a lot of emotional intensity, I lay down on the mat, and I let myself move however it wants to move, and it looks weird.

Dara McKinley [00:44:35]:
So with these three things, I say, like, when you’re I teach a writing practice, and I say, let it be raw. And I teach a movement practice, and I’m like, let it be weird. Yes.

Lora Cheadle [00:44:44]:
And I see

Dara McKinley [00:44:45]:
a creativity practice where I’m like, let it be simple. It can be the recycling. You know? It could be it I I had a woman once, she felt like a she said, I feel like a bee trapped in a glass jar. And she went and got a glass jar and got a toy bee and threw it in there and put the top on, and she felt a congruence every time she passed through her living room. You know, she felt seen by this by this piece of art.

Dara McKinley [00:45:10]:
Yes. Yes. That’s beautiful. I I really appreciate that. And I don’t know if this is part of your process or not, but I love that you have this process, this practice, and that you work with people because I think from the work I do, there’s something about being witnessed. And can we forgive on our own? Sure. But to have you with somebody, to have other people with somebody, to be witnessed in our emotions is like a whole other layer that I think just greases the cogs of the wheel and really makes it go a lot quicker.

Dara McKinley [00:45:47]:
Yes. It is, one of the most, you know, healing things that can happen is when you tell your story to someone who can truly see you

Dara McKinley [00:45:58]:
Yes.

Dara McKinley [00:45:58]:
And, truly see your soul, your intention, and meet you, like, with compassion and wisdom. Yes. Like, I wish that for every single person in the world. I’ve been very blessed to have many moments of that. And, and I also am aware of the fact that some people don’t have any of that in their life where it’s very few and far between. And so I always say, like, yes. If go for those experiences and also know how to see yourself. And between those two forces Yes.

Dara McKinley [00:46:29]:
You you will move forward. But I completely agree with you. Vitamin c, quality vitamin c is like some of the best thing on the planet for sure. Mhmm.

Dara McKinley [00:46:38]:
Yeah. Because looking at your different realms, this podcast has provided information. Information is great that satisfies the thought reason. Okay. Resources. What are some of the physical resources? Maybe people can make some things up on their own, but it’s also really nice to be like, hey. I’m doing your program. I’m reaching out for coaching.

Dara McKinley [00:46:59]:
I’m doing different things. Now I have even more resources. And then freedom. Okay. What does that look like? Sometimes when we go, oh, I don’t know what that means. It’s easy to walk away from it. Oh, I guess I don’t need it. But to have somebody kind of pushing you, what is that freedom? What is that freedom around that action? And then how can I see myself, and how can I allow myself to be seen by others? That’s beautiful.

Dara McKinley [00:47:24]:
Yeah. Totally. And I I love, what you just pulled together, and I’m very familiar with your work. And I do think that you provide that container for people, you know, in a really comprehensive way. And so I’m a huge fan.

Dara McKinley [00:47:38]:
Yeah. Well, thank you. And right back at you. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So what is something that you want people to know about forgiveness? Because we have done a lot of information here, boiling it down to just one thing. What is the one thing you wish every listener here knew about forgiveness?

Dara McKinley [00:48:05]:
That it’s at its essence, it’s so much bigger and beneficial than pardoning. Yeah. That would that would be that and that it’s it’s this you know, I kind of think I believe after practice doing this practice for this long and working with people for this long, that one of our, greatest assets in this life is to have a rock solid relationship with divine love, because it communicates and guides and restores. I mean, it’s just really phenomenal. And I realized that forgiveness, as as hard as it is to experience these huge ruptures, that forgiveness is actually this beautiful path to making that connection and to having that relationship. It really, like, develops the muscles and the neural pathways, you know, and makes it a very practical experience. And that’s kind of one of my fascinations in life is that I want spirituality to be practical. I want it to have legs.

Dara McKinley [00:49:05]:
I want it to Yes. I want I don’t want it to be platitudes or nice ideals. I want it’s like, does it relieve suffering, and does it benefit our lives in tangible ways? Like, that’s, like, what I’m after.

Dara McKinley [00:49:17]:
Yeah. I love that. Does it relieve suffering, and does it beneficial benefit our lives in tangible ways? Yes.

Dara McKinley [00:49:25]:
Right.

Dara McKinley [00:49:25]:
Isn’t that what we all want? Right. Because, otherwise, why are we doing it?

Dara McKinley [00:49:30]:
Right.

Dara McKinley [00:49:32]:
Yeah. Because, otherwise, it’s an ego trip. It’s I’m doing this because it makes me a good person. Not because it makes me feel better. Not because it increases love and value and support.

Dara McKinley [00:49:44]:
It makes me whole. You know? Yeah. And Yeah. And and and ultimately, what would I think, honestly, we’re after soul alignment. Right? If you’re on our deathbeds, if we can say you know, there’s, like, the 5, regrets of the people who are dying. Yeah. I actually was thinking about it recently. I was like, I actually think there’s just one.

Dara McKinley [00:50:01]:
And the the one is, did you align with your soul in this life? Right? And if you get to say yes, I did. I did my best. It’s you know, it is a challenge to align with your soul. You know? It’s and so but if you get to say yes, like, whew, that was a successful journey. You know? And, like, you can really go in peace.

Dara McKinley [00:50:20]:
Yeah. No. I I 100% agree with you. Now you’ve got a course coming up. Yes. Mhmm. Can you say more about that and let people know where they can learn more about you or register for the course or all of that good stuff?

Dara McKinley [00:50:32]:
So I teach the course once a season. It’s 6 weeks long. I’m not doesn’t take 6 weeks to forgive, but it takes 6 weeks to learn how to forgive. I really want people to graduate with proficiency and and a lasting experience. And it’s, yeah, the next one should I speak about when the next one is coming? Absolutely. The next one is happening in January January 12th. And, yeah. So I teach these skills.

Dara McKinley [00:50:58]:
I teach people how to identify what needs it, and I really you know, it’s almost like a boot camp. Right? I really want I wanna create a strong neural pathway, and that takes repetition. You know? So I really, like, inspire people to kind of have a a a lasting emotional spiritual experience. So when they graduate, they’re like, that worked, and I got this. Like, and I have this now. You know? And I can use this, like, from here on out.

Dara McKinley [00:51:23]:
Yeah. And I think that’s the key. Use it for here on out because it’s not, oops. I have one experience, and I have to forgive, and now my life is gonna be perfect. You’re gonna be using this tool again and again.

Dara McKinley [00:51:34]:
Right? Yeah. I know the soul’s journey has ups and ups and downs, and that’s just fundamental. It’s nothing personal. We’re all in it. We are all having a soul’s journey.

Dara McKinley [00:51:43]:
And I will link your website, but what is your website? Where can people get in touch with?

Dara McKinley [00:51:47]:
My web my website is how to forgive, which is what I typed in that fateful night in October 2012. And I, I don’t teach on social media, but I do have a presence there, and I keep it inspirational. And, you know, mainly, you can find me, you know, talking to amazing people like Lora. Forgive this. And at my website. Yeah.

Dara McKinley [00:52:11]:
And if you need to, reach her, you can reach out to me too. I’m absolutely happy.

Dara McKinley [00:52:15]:
Yes. And if you have any questions, you can email, team and how to forgive.

Dara McKinley [00:52:19]:
Perfect. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for being here, for your wisdom, for your daring and your willingness to start figuring it out and to ask some of the hard questions, to be willing to say, no. That’s not what it is. This might be what it is. Let me see. And to expand into something that is practical and beneficial. So thank you for that.

Dara McKinley [00:52:45]:
Thank you so much for having Amy. It was an honor.

Dara McKinley [00:52:48]:
You’re welcome. Listeners definitely reach out. I will link all the information below and as usual have an amazing week and always remember to FLAUNT! exactly who you are because who you are is always more than enough.

Lora Cheadle [00:53:05]:
Tune in next time to FLAUNT!, find your sparkle and create a life you love after infidelity or betrayal with Lora Cheadle every Wednesday at 7 AM and 7 PM Eastern Standard Time on syndicated DreamVision 7 Radio Network. Uncover the truth of what’s possible for you on the other side of betrayal and develop the skills and strategies necessary to embrace the future and flourish today. Download your free betrayal recovery toolkit at betrayalrecoveryguide.com.