While it can be worthwhile to see if your marriage can be saved, sometimes you are better off apart. While the road to dissolving your marriage can be long and challenging, it doesn’t have to be terrible. If you have felt shut down because you think your situation is unresolvable, this episode is for you. Today’s guest is Gabrielle Hartley, an attorney and mediator who specializes in resolving unresolvable situations. She will share actionable tips to help you productively navigate conflict from her books, Better Apart; The Radically Positive Way to Separate (2019), and The Secret to Getting Along; Three Steps to Life Changing Conflict Resolution.

Top Take-a-Ways:

• Why defensiveness is the enemy of resolution and tools to stay calm in every moment.
• Deescalating both yourself and others when tensions rise.
• How to hold yourself up high, respect yourself, and find happiness, which just happens to be the best revenge. Download a copy of your Fetish Finder Worksheet and start scheduling in your self-care, pleasure, and joy today! https://loracheadle.com/freebies/

 

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About Lora:

Attorney, speaker and Burnout & Betrayal Recovery Coach, Lora Cheadle believes that betrayal uncovers the truth of what’s possible when we stop focusing on what was done to us and start showing up unapologetically for ourselves. She helps women rebuild their identity and self-worth after infidelity so they can reclaim (or find for the very first time) their confidence, clarity, and connection to source and create their own kind of happily ever after.

 

Untangle yourself from the past, reclaim your power, and own your worth so you can create a future you love on your own terms. All with a wink and a smile! Learn more at www.loracheadle.com and follow me across all social!

 

 

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Transcript

Lora Cheadle [00:00:02]:
Hello and welcome to Flaunt, find your sparkle and create a life you love after infidelity or betrayal. I’m Laura Cheadle, and today we’re going to talk about resolving unresolvable conflicts. How do you do that? Like, how do you do that when you 2 are so polarized that you cannot find any common ground? And what does it mean if you have to have a divorce or a parenting plan or any of those things with a partner who you just think, I can’t do this. I can’t I can’t even talk to this person, let alone divorce them. So we’re gonna talk all about that. My guest is Gabrielle Hartley, and what I really appreciate about her is, like me, she’s an attorney. So she’s got that background of what are you entitled to? What might you be entitled to? What should you know? But she’s also a mediator, and she’s an author of 2 books that I find fascinating. The first book is Better Apart, the Radically Positive Way to Separate.

Lora Cheadle [00:01:05]:
Who wants to separate in positive way? That is just so empowering to me. And her other book is The Secret to Getting Along and Why It’s Easier Than You Think, 3 steps to life changing conflict resolution. And I know we all want a little bit more positive and life changing conflict resolution. So with that, welcome to the show, Gabrielle. I’m so excited to talk to you.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:01:33]:
I’m so excited to be here. Thank you so much for asking me on.

Lora Cheadle [00:01:35]:
Oh, you’re welcome. Let’s just start kind of with the the toughest stuff. How do you resolve conflict with somebody who is bound and determined to be a pill and to not really resolve conflict in a very positive way.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:01:52]:
Right. And so you you just said the magic words with some people walking away is the only way forward, and that can be very tricky if you have to deal with that person. But a step back and a step to the side oftentimes really deciding whether or not you have to dive that deeply into a particular argument or not. You know, we tend to get caught in these senseless argument loops, which go nowhere. And just stopping the crazy is really the best way through.

Lora Cheadle [00:02:25]:
I really appreciate that because it’s so hard to stop the crazy sometimes. Now you Just to catch yourself. Sorry. Yeah. No. I’m glad you said that. And and and that that’s kind of what I wanted to lean into. Stopping the crazy for you versus trying to inspire somebody else to stop the crazy.

Lora Cheadle [00:02:45]:
And sometimes I know from my own personal history too, when you are dealing with somebody who’s crazy and you try to talk them down, this doesn’t make sense. Don’t you see that that doesn’t make sense? If you could only see, it makes

Gabrielle Hartley [00:02:55]:
sense. Right. That’s right. And and so, one thing that I’ve sort of figured out after 25 years of resolving very difficult divorces on media in mediation is, you know, the only thing that each person and also from my own life, the only person Simi can control is you. Right? And that’s that’s like the step one in, the yes method. Right? You have to really figure out what am I doing? Am I minimizing what’s going on? Am I catastrophizing what’s happening? Am I somehow stirring the pot? Right? Am I ignoring something that I should be dealing with? Right? So what am I doing and how can I stop doing these things? And it can be really tricky because when we’re feeling emotionally heated, what do we do? We we go into fight or flight mode, and our automatic responses happen where we we, unintentionally escalate. So what what you really wanna do is your best to neutralize, or if you’re really feeling powerful is to deescalate. And the and and to start to do that, just walking away and saying, this is not a good time to have this conversation.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:04:24]:
I’m going to take some space. Let the other person know you’re walking away so you’re setting a boundary, but you’re not cutting them off. I’ll be back in an hour. I’ll be back when I calm down. Even though really you wanna say I’ll be back when you calm down. Right? Yes. I need space. I’m feeling upset.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:04:40]:
I’m feeling out of control because it’s really, it takes nothing away from who you are by owning part of the problem. We’re let’s face it. We’re all at least 1% at fault for any kind of argument that we’re having.

Lora Cheadle [00:04:58]:
Yeah. We are. And that’s a hard one sometimes. I I know that’s a hard one. Okay. So you’ve got a person who you’re having a conflict with. You’re both emotional. First thing is really realizing you can’t control them.

Lora Cheadle [00:05:13]:
You can only control you. Owning a little bit of that, taking responsibility either to neutralize or to deescalate. Perfect. So what happens next? What happens after that?

Gabrielle Hartley [00:05:27]:
So what you’re gonna do next is you’re going to literally remove yourself from the situation by taking a brief walk or just taking a couple of breaths, you know, depending on where who you are, where you are. This could be at work. This can be at home. But say it’s with your partner and you are so upset, just say I need to take some time. So then you’re gonna literally shelve the conversation. You’re going to pause. I like to say I like to say shelve, because it’s really visual. So we’re putting this difficult conversation on the shelf.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:06:01]:
Say your whole family’s coming over. Right? And you’re in a giant fight, and suddenly you have to be pleasant, and you you just feel like you’re gonna die. Right? So you go in the bathroom, freshen up a little bit, come back out, and come to the table. And you’re not being fake, you’re just pausing this conversation. Right? So you’re gonna talk about other things. You’re gonna give time for your central nervous system to calm down as well as your partner or husband or whoever’s central nervous to calm down. And during that time, you’re going to be thinking to yourself, what is going on for me emotionally? What is what do I really want here? What do I really need here? What is my inner motivation? Right? We we fight over what we want. We fight over positions.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:06:50]:
We resolve over motivation. Why we want what we want. Oh. We we can’t figure out why we want what we want when we are minimizing, catastrophizing, stirring the pot, steamrolling, burying our head in the sand, whatever all the things that we do. So you’re gonna shelve, you’re going to deescalate for yourself, and you’re gonna ask yourself, how would my life, how would my relationship, how would everything be different if I could only get them to see the point of view I I feel that I need them to see? Or do I even need them to see the point of view? Maybe I can just leave this alone. Maybe this is just a dance I’m really I’m really, accustomed to having and I’m so bored of this dance. I need new steps and a new dance. And you can change the dance.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:07:44]:
Right? And then, you know, there’s that age old question, like, should I stay or should I go? Which is a really personal journey for every single one of us in a relationship. And and and the question is like a moment to moment question. There’s no one size fits all answer. Even for you. Even for right? Even if, you know, I know in my relationship, there’s days where I’m like, oh my gosh. I cannot believe that I like, know, what are my hashtag relationship goals here? And I feel so angry, but I know myself, and I know that most of the time I calm down. So I, you know, like, I write from what I know. I wrote the secret to getting along because I’ve had to give it a lot of thought.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:08:28]:
Right? Yeah. And so I really I really know, you know, Better Apart was kind of like a book to my clients and maybe to my mother. Better Apart, was just about, like, how can you feel better as you go through and beyond your divorce? Like, it’s not about, like, getting along in that book. It’s not it like, it’s really it’s not about, like, making somebody who does not treat you well necessarily treat you better. Although I would say, if you employ the the three pieces of the secret to getting along, which is managing your role. Yes. Right? Shelving and understanding that emotional story cause then you can circle back. Then when you’re calm and you understand your story, the next trick is to try to figure out what that other person needs.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:09:21]:
Because we’re all really operating out of fear. Right? Or some kind of fundamental insecurity. And and that goes for everybody. Like, there’s not a single human being who doesn’t have behaviors stemming from our elemental fear and insecurity. Like, we all have them. Like, I don’t care who you are or what you do, if you’re poor, if you’re rich, if, like, you know, color or creed, sexual or gender orientation. We’re all people, and we all act in these defensive ways, and, defensiveness is the enemy of resolution.

Lora Cheadle [00:09:57]:
Yeah.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:09:57]:
So if we so if we can understand what we need, and also figure out, this is the tricky part, you can’t always do this, figure out what the other person needs. Maybe the other person needs to feel right. Right? Feel right. Not be right. They think they need to be right, but really, everybody just needs their feelings met. Maybe there’s something that the other person is saying after you’ve really calmed down that you can acknowledge the smallest little piece of what they’re doing that’s kind of right. Because we’re all always a little bit wrong. Right? Always.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:10:35]:
I know. And I don’t think I am, but I know I am. Right. Because I know you are.

Lora Cheadle [00:10:40]:
Right. Exactly. And that’s so easy from a a calm to nervous system state to be like, I get that. I’ve got my own words. You’ve got we’re always and then we get agitated, and it’s like, duh.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:10:58]:
Boom. Right. Right. Yeah. The crazy comes out, and especially when you’re in a high stress relationship, if you have a kid who’s dealing with something that’s stressful, if you have a, you know, older parent and your sibling isn’t helping and you feel like everything is on you, there are so many times where our thinking brains are disengaged because we’re so upset. Right? And we get overwhelmed, especially those of us who are women in that sandwich generation where it’s all falling on us. Right? I, you know, I have a I haven’t built it out, but I have a, a URL, called familyfrontal lobe.com. Because I love it.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:11:40]:
It’s just so so much. So really, you know, if there if there’s one really strong clear tip that I would leave for for your clients, for your listeners Yeah. Yeah. Is that taking that pause, shelving the conversation, and asking yourself, why do I need this? Is do I need this? Is this an important conversation? Can I maybe just let the other person feel right? Notice I didn’t say be right, but feel right. Act. Respectful to them because maybe they’re having a bad day. Maybe, you know, you just have to figure out I I shouldn’t say just. You need to because it’s not just, it’s just you know, what are your goals for your relationship with this person today and over the long term? Maybe you wanna just get away, but maybe it’s your your husband and you’ve got 3 kids and they’re little now, but you know, well, he’s he’s gonna get married to somebody else one day and Yep.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:12:35]:
The kids are gonna grow up and we need to get along well enough. So how can I hold myself high and be happy and respectful? Number 1 is to respect you.

Lora Cheadle [00:12:47]:
Yes. Yes.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:12:48]:
And when you respect you, you’re going to have better outcomes with the other person always.

Lora Cheadle [00:12:54]:
Yeah. I want to circle back to when you were talking about why do I need this and do I need this and really understanding your motivation and pairing that with the idea of what you just said, long term outcome. Because when you find out that your partner has cheated, so often you want vindication. You want to show that you are holding that moral high ground. You want to prove that I would never have done this to you. You want the world to know what a scum, what a jerk. Like, you get into that place of hate and vengeance, and it’s really hard to unhook from I have to prove that I did nothing wrong and that he hurt me and he did this to me and to think about the future. And that one day, you are gonna be at a wedding with those same kids, and they’re gonna have kids and you’re gonna be grandparents.

Lora Cheadle [00:13:46]:
And although you don’t have to see each other, you’re gonna have to see each other.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:13:51]:
Yeah. And your happiness is the best revenge. You’re being calm and happy and embracing of life and beautiful on the inside and not letting, not letting their ugly behavior make you feel ugly, if that makes sense.

Lora Cheadle [00:14:05]:
Yeah. Oh absolutely. And I’m

Gabrielle Hartley [00:14:07]:
not saying that, I’m not saying that’s easy, but by releasing your anger, you are paving the way to greater emotional freedom. So anger this now we’re getting to better apart. So in better part so in better apart, I talk about 5 essential elements, peace, patience, respect, clarity, and forgiveness. Okay. And forgiveness is, you know, if I were rewriting Better Apart, I would have called it acceptance because forgiveness is a word that really gets people very upset. I didn’t actually realize it’s it’s not a trigger word for me, but it is for a lot of people. But anyway Yeah. Let’s just use it for a minute.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:14:49]:
Forgive yourself for allowing yourself to be in this relationship, for being, betrayed. Forgive self for your actions or inactions. And truly love yourself for all the love that you gave whether or not it was properly received because that’s a gift. Being able to love and to give love is a gift, right? And so then, remember drinking poison, I mean holding on to anger is like drinking poison and asking the other person and and and expecting the other person to die. Right? So, anger is a protective mechanism that we use to get through extremely painful situations. And you might need anger to begin with, and that’s fine. Yes. But hold on to your anger and go kickbox or weight lift or do something, you know, you know, throw paint at a canvas.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:15:40]:
Do something that’s positive. I I really like physical activity, you know, to really get get everything out and lower your cortisol levels. And as time elapses, you can release the anger. And, you know, you might find out that you’d feel sorry for the other person. You know? Just allow yourself to be vulnerable. You don’t have to act like you don’t care. Certainly not. But, you also don’t have to punish yourself by punishing them and not really getting any benefit of that.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:16:12]:
So remember, you know, holding on to anger is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.

Lora Cheadle [00:16:19]:
And it’s so true, and it doesn’t help. Doesn’t help. Right. Doesn’t help. But you might have

Gabrielle Hartley [00:16:25]:
to be like, you know what? If you’re if you’re feeling really angry right now, it’s okay. Right? Like, I don’t mean to anger shame you. Like, it’s totally cool to feel angry. And just because you release the anger doesn’t mean that you think it’s okay what they did. It just means that you’re ready to move on. Like, they’re occupying too much real estate in your brain. Like this is your and you’re like letting them waste your life. Like, we only have a precious short amount of time on on this earth, and we want to really, I I wanna enjoy my time here.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:16:57]:
And I I Oh, yeah. I see people do too. Right? So so letting letting their bad behavior seep into your happy mind is is not is you’re you’re just giving yourself more harm, self inflicted.

Lora Cheadle [00:17:13]:
Yeah. And and it is self inflicted harm. It is. It absolutely is.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:17:18]:
It’s hard to see that when you’re in it, of course.

Lora Cheadle [00:17:20]:
Right. Oh, it is. It is. But when you look back on it, then you go, gosh. Why was I so locked into that position for so long? It doesn’t make any sense.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:17:28]:
Right. Right. Yeah. Totally.

Lora Cheadle [00:17:30]:
Okay. So here’s my question. I love your work. It’s so similar to so many of the things that I do, which is what I really like about it, especially when you mentioned the forgiveness because the golden center of flaunt is AU, except unconditionally. So I love that because it is about accepting where you’re at instead of arguing about it and wasting what if, if only, when I

Gabrielle Hartley [00:17:55]:
Exactly. I mean, I I mediate online exclusively with people in mid to high conflict divorce courses, and I spend a lot of time doing my best to impart a lot of this knowledge onto the people getting divorced. Both the person who cheated, if that’s, you know, part of it, because they often have all kinds of guilt and and Yeah. Telling them to live with it in a kind way is it’s it’s all just very interesting and, and difficult, but but it’s so good for you. It is so good for you.

Lora Cheadle [00:18:27]:
Yeah. It really is. And that leads right into what I wanted to talk about next. There’s a lot of wisdom that is gained from divorce, from infidelity. My whole tagline to my business is betrayal uncovers the truth because it uncovers the truth about all of the things that we have not seen within ourselves. It gives us that opportunity to get wiser, to get better, to become more fully who we are. So here’s the question. Do you do that before you file for divorce? Do you do that during the divorce process? Do you wait until you’re in front of you at mediation? When is, like, the ideal time to structure all of this? Because I know a lot of my people are really committed to healing.

Lora Cheadle [00:19:10]:
They’re really committed to looking within, but they wanna get the order right.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:19:17]:
Today is the first day of the rest of your life. So today is the perfect day to start feeling better. It doesn’t mean you’re weak. It means you’re strong, actually. Your path to your healing is your path to the greatest emotional freedom and forgiveness, self forgiveness, self acceptance. And I promise you, Laura and I didn’t talk before this and we’re so on the same page. I’m like loving this so much. Right? Like you and by the way, be really forgiving of yourself, it takes time, right? This all takes time, it’s a process.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:19:53]:
Because your life, even if you’re going to work all day and you’ve got little kids that you’re dealing with, every day give yourself whether it’s 3 15 minute segments or 2 half hour segments, like, you know, 45 minutes to an hour of just you time. Whether it’s going for a walk or talking to a good friend or listening to music and taking an extra long shower. Like, something that feels really decadent because you really deserve deep healing and you might not have the time or money or bandwidth for a spa. But every day, you can make a little tiny spa time. I’m I’m a spa junkie, but, you know, something like that for you so that you start to heal and over time, more moments of the day are going to feel positive instead of just feeling like you’re living under a black cloud.

Lora Cheadle [00:20:43]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Spot junkie, yes. I’m into that. And listeners, what I’m gonna do, I’m attaching several resources to this show, but, again, I love the synergy. I’ve got a Fetish Finder worksheet. And for those of you who, like me, still like paper day planners, it’s just a download of your daily schedule, and the task is to schedule in time for you, whether it is, like you said, a 15 minute shower or walking around the block or sitting down with a cup of tea in a book.

Lora Cheadle [00:21:17]:
When you write it down, when you physically put pen to paper and write it down from 2 to 2 to 15, that’s my time, from 9 to 9:20, that’s my time, It’s much more likely to happen. So I’m gonna attach that to the show too so you can have it. So thank you for that.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:21:33]:
Absolutely. And and the another thing that you can consider doing is, every morning when you wake up, like, think of a personal mantra, like, I am radically calm. I am beautiful. Something short, sweet, and positive, and say it to yourself the second you wake up every morning. I am radically calm. I am beautiful. What, you know, whatever it is, I’m powerful. And repeat it to yourself in the moments where you’re feeling like garbage.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:22:00]:
I am beautiful. No. I’m not. You are. You are beautiful. Right? Remind yourself of how strong, beautiful, powerful, you know, effective you are as a human. Mhmm. Even when you’re feeling really bad because in those harder moments, those positive thoughts, they’re gonna germinate like little seeds if you’re in the practice of saying them over and over.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:22:25]:
I’m a big believer in positive affirmations. Mhmm.

Lora Cheadle [00:22:29]:
I love affirmations. And that goes back to what you said earlier about holding yourself high. You hold yourself high by respecting yourself, by loving yourself, by affirming to yourself how you want to be. And like you said, even if you’re not quite there, you’re still affirming. But I am radically peaceful, but I am beautiful. I am.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:22:52]:
I am. Right? In the present. So I have in Better Apart, I mean, if you wanna pick up a copy of Better Apart, Yes. You put it on Amazon or whatever. It’s filled with really lots of, great nuggets of wisdom. Elena Brower, who’s a yoga and and a meditation expert, she has a lot of great things in there also. Yoga poses you can do to help ground you. Gwyneth Paltrow gave me a cover endorsement actually on it.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:23:22]:
Yeah. I know. It’s very exciting. It’s a long time ago now, but yeah. She she read it and she said that it was filled with potent and accessible tools for you and your family’s future. And so if any of you I know, you know, if any of you like Gwyneth yeah. I love her too. I know.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:23:41]:
She’s amazing. Yeah. That was very flattering when that happened.

Lora Cheadle [00:23:46]:
So Yeah. And, definitely, I I am encouraging everybody to pick up a copy of the book because simple tools like that are where it’s at. You know? Simple. Yeah.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:23:56]:
Super easy. And, like, you guys, you’re gonna get through this. You are I promise you. I know you don’t know me, but I have been doing this for so long, and it feels like you’re just in a terrible storm or tornado. And but one day you’re gonna wake up and you’re gonna feel like yourself again, and you’re gonna feel better than you ever felt before because of this horrible trauma that you’re in right now, really.

Lora Cheadle [00:24:23]:
Right. Right. And you’ll be more able able to maintain it because that’s the thing. Tornadoes will continue to happen, and I feel like this is really good training ground. If I can do this, I can do anything.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:24:34]:
Absolutely. I love the name of your business and of your book, Flaunt. It’s just so amazing because I think that that’s really, a lot of power that especially as women, we’re not given permission to flaunt. Nope. And and it’s a dirty word almost. Yeah. And it shouldn’t be. Right? Yes.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:24:52]:
So I I love it. I think flaunt is just it’s really great. And I love the boa also I’m seeing. Thank you. Thank you. Anyone’s not anyone who doesn’t see us and is just listening, should take a peek at Laura, and and her whole setup. It’s it’s amazing.

Lora Cheadle [00:25:08]:
Thank you. Thank you so much. And thank you for recognizing the word too because you’re absolutely right. So often we cover ourselves and we shut down, and flaunt to me is that opposite energy. I am flaunting who I am not to impress you, not to prove myself to you, but because I am glorious as I am. And, also, yes. And thank you for noticing also just the the word choice because I also use the word fetish a lot because it’s slightly naughty. Flaunt is slightly naughty.

Lora Cheadle [00:25:37]:
Fetish is slightly naughty. And there’s power into leaning into something and being like, I can hold space for this. I can hold this. It’s who I

Gabrielle Hartley [00:25:47]:
am. Hold it. And you know what else? Here’s another little tip. Women say worry. I’m worried about this. I’m worried about that. Worry is a weak word. Say concerned.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:25:55]:
I’ve got a concern. Right? You don’t hear so there’s another little there’s another little nugget. You know?

Lora Cheadle [00:26:02]:
That’s a great one. Yeah. Love that. Okay. Let’s get into a little bit more about mediation because so many of my listeners have been blind slightest blindsided like I was. Damn. There’s an affair. Wait.

Lora Cheadle [00:26:17]:
What? Screeching breaks, spinning around, did not see this coming. Now we’re tasked with, what do I do and what are my options? And divorce feels scary and hard, and what does mediation mean, and what if I get it wrong, and who do I pick, and what if it doesn’t work out? Can you give us a little breakdown of all of that?

Gabrielle Hartley [00:26:39]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So you really need to know what your rights are. That’s number 1, but at the same time, you have to understand what divorce court is and what divorce court is not. Now, just by way of background, I did work for a divorce court judge, the chief judge of the state of New York for years. And I so I have a a particular viewpoint, and it was a wonderful place to be, and it was a very eye opening for me. And what what I learned was that while the the court process is necessary for a set of people, for most people it’s not. And it just stirs things up.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:27:20]:
It costs a tremendous amount of money and time. And at the same time, you shouldn’t be afraid of it. Some people need it. So like I do work with a a very strong litigation firm in Manhattan, because there’s this and in Boston also, because there’s a set of people who call me and they want to mediate, but, you know, their spouse is not disclosing all their income or assets. Or, you know, there’s some other there’s a violent situation. There are there are reasons why going to court is necessary. But most of the time, if you go to a skilled mediator Mhmm. Don’t make any decisions.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:28:02]:
Go to the mediator to lay the groundwork. You’re gonna get more out of your spouse in the beginning. This is this here’s another hot take. As my kids go hot take. Exactly. I’ve got I’ve got 3 teenage boys. So so the person who feels guilty is going to be the most generous in the beginning, but guilt goes away.

Lora Cheadle [00:28:27]:
Yes. It does.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:28:29]:
The tricky part is that when you’re upset, you don’t wanna take the first offer. And your lawyer may may or may not see that it’s such a great offer because they haven’t really started to bill you yet. I feel bad saying that, but it’s just it’s just True.

Lora Cheadle [00:28:46]:
It’s just true.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:28:47]:
So, you go to a mediator to establish the groundwork. I know when I start to see people, the first thing we do is we take an inventory of everything, but we don’t make decisions in the first meeting. And then if you feel that you’re not getting the legal information, somewhere else, I mean, in the mediation, which you generally will not get, you need to go to an attorney to have a consultation to figure out what you are entitled to and what you are responsible for. Then once you understand your best and worst case scenarios if you were to go to court and go back to mediation and continue to try to work it through together. Now if you’re the person who’s naturally accommodating, you’re going to really need to practice the art of saying no. In in a way. And I feel like I’m, like, shamelessly self promoting my books, but in the secret to getting old, I have a whole I have a whole topic, a whole section on how to set boundaries, how to say no. You you if you say yes and then you say no later, you have just escalated an argument.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:30:08]:
You have just created a problem. Trying to be nice when you haven’t thought it through is not nice.

Lora Cheadle [00:30:15]:
No it’s not.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:30:17]:
It’s actually problematic. So so to so to answer it, Laura, I know I just I I got a little bit off track here, but your question is how where do you start? And so you start slowly. You gather your team. You get your lawyer. You get your mediator. You figure out, you know, can we do mediation? Do I need to do lawyer assist mediation? I’m, like, honestly such a fan of mediation. I became a mediator because I thought it was just the most effective way to go through the divorce process. It’s not gonna feel as punishing for your acts.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:30:52]:
But, again, happiness is the greatest revenge. Mhmm.

Lora Cheadle [00:30:57]:
And also reminder, courts are courts of law, not courts of moral justice.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:31:03]:
That’s a 100% right. And the court so so what that basically means is the court it might feel good to let the court know all the horrible things that your spouse did, but they don’t really care. They have a big docket to get through. Gonna take you a really long time to get your divorce finalized. It could take years years versus couple of months. And, you know, if you wanna tour if you have endless money and you don’t really want to do anything else with your life, you can certainly go down that road. And, it’s it’s usually not necessary. So before just diving in, at least have a conversation with a lawyer and a mediator near you.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:31:47]:
When you find a lawyer, do your homework to make sure that that lawyer is actually mediation friendly. Good. For real. Not just not just that they say they are, but ask around because there are lawyers who make a profession, partially of blowing up mediations.

Lora Cheadle [00:32:08]:
Yes. That is such a good point. Thank you for that. So get your team, get a lawyer, get a mediator. People live in different states, in different countries. This show is international. Give us a little bit about the rules on where can they reach you. You’re in New York.

Lora Cheadle [00:32:31]:
You’re not licensed in Indiana. Give us a little bit of rundown on jurisdiction and where lawyers can practice and where mediators can practice so people understand that.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:32:42]:
Absolutely. So right now, I I am the cochair of the mediation committee of the American Bar Association. And, right now, there anybody can call themselves a mediator. You can be a just a regular person. You can be a therapist. There there are very few rules in most states. I can work with you no matter where you live in the whole wide world. Okay? I can help you to reach a set of resolutions.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:33:10]:
However, only in New York and in Massachusetts can I actually do your legal documents? And only in New York and Massachusetts do I not insist that you have a lawyer. If you’re anywhere else, you have to have a consulting lawyer because I do not know the law. So you have to have a very good working understanding of your best and worst case scenarios. Don’t just look it up online because it’s not going to be descriptive enough. If it says, you know, you you know, say, it says, the judge has discretion over whether or not to give alimony. You might interpret that to say, they always give alimony or they never give alimony. Well, I have no idea what that means. Only a lawyer who practices in the in the in that area will understand will really know what in fact, is the case.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:34:03]:
Mhmm. So lawyers are licensed in different states, and it’s not even just within different states, but depending on if it’s a big state or a small state, within the same state, even if they practice online, you want someone who practices in the area where you’re actually getting divorced because they’re going to be the best judges, pardon the expression, of what the judge is going to actually do, you know, in the outcome of a particular case. So your mediator can really be anywhere. Your lawyer must be local.

Lora Cheadle [00:34:44]:
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Thank you for that. So people interested in you, they’re like, oh my gosh. Gabrielle’s amazing. I love how she puts the mind together.

Lora Cheadle [00:34:53]:
I love that. How can they reach out to you? What kind of a consultation do you do? What stage of the game should they be in before they reach out to you?

Gabrielle Hartley [00:35:04]:
So you can find me at gabriellehartley.com, and you can book a consultation right there. I offer a mini I call it a pre mediation session. So it’s pre session. It’s actually a and, generally, I prefer if both people are on for that, but it’s not necessary. And it’s just a half hour call. And it is a paid for call, but it’s a reduced rate for for the half hour. And then, to work with me, I do, at this time, offer ongoing flat rate. So you pay a certain amount of money for a certain amount of con consultations and mediation sessions.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:35:43]:
It’s it’s a bit different than most people, and I’ll explain all about that during the pre session. But it’s really nice. It’s a really holistic view. We have a lot of contact, and there’s absolutely no hourly charges whatsoever. So I I think that works really well when you’re in a a, high intensity, upsetting time. In terms of what stage of the divorce is the best to reach out to me, I I am really happy to work with people and jump in at any stage. If you don’t have lawyers, you know, today is the first day of the rest of your life, just like your healing process. Let’s get started, you know, reach out right now and and let me know that you heard me on the Laura Cheadle, launch show.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:36:29]:
And and, you know, I will do my very best to prebook you even earlier than you book. And if you are already with lawyers and you’re in Massachusetts or New York, I also offer settlement conferences. So I’m very happy to help you to reach a resolution with the lawyers right there in the room, post judgment, or at any point in your litigation process. So to learn more or just to reach out, go to gabriellehartley.com, and I’d be happy to, to talk to you further.

Lora Cheadle [00:37:05]:
Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. Here’s another question that a lot of people ask me. They say, I’m really interested in working things out with my partner, but I’m terrified. What if I try to work things out and we have all these plans and then my partner cheats again and I’ve lost? Can I do a marital agreement to help us along the way so we can kind of negotiate some terms and settlements that if they cheat again, then this is what the divorce is going to look like or then they will move out? Talk about something like that.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:37:39]:
Yeah. So I can help you also to mediate a postnuptial agreement. Again, it depends where you live about how enforceable they are and Yes. The mechanism in order to enforce it. But yes, I can certainly, work with you to help you arrive at the terms around, you know, how things will be distributed, how assets and debts will both be distributed. And, even we could put in something around a parenting plan. Although, anything having to do with children both in a post nup and a prenup, they’re not enforceable. So you could put it in, but it would be what we lawyers would call precatory language.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:38:14]:
It’s just like feel good language that may or may not apply.

Lora Cheadle [00:38:17]:
Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? I’m gonna talk about that a little bit more because same thing. I have done some agreements for my clients as well with that same caveat. We’re sitting down and we’re structuring this agreement, and it gives you something. And you have sat down in front of me, but it might not be enforceable. It just might not be enforceable. And I think sometimes that’s okay.

Lora Cheadle [00:38:38]:
Sometimes it’s okay. Like, when you said it’s feel good language because I think sometimes that goes back to some of the work that you’ve done in your books around getting along, around tips for doing things. Sometimes it’s okay to do something that is just feel good because it brings you together on the same page, and it gives you the opportunity to take that next step forward together, not from an adversarial place. Yeah.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:39:03]:
I I love that. And that’s why I also am a big fan of doing, prenups and postnups with a mediator versus 2 lawyers. You can come together, come up with all the terms Yes. And then go to your lawyers to draft it up instead of doing Yeah. Exactly. Yeah

Lora Cheadle [00:39:26]:
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Absolutely. And then to sum up, I just would like to hear your thoughts on because I love this title, Better Apart. I’d love to hear your thoughts on just the concept of, you know what, we’re 2 really good people. We all have done some things right. We all have done some things wrong, and maybe we’re better apart.

Lora Cheadle [00:39:48]:
And I’d love you to close with just your thoughts on what does it mean to be better apart and how can we better embrace that as a catalyst for moving forward?

Gabrielle Hartley [00:39:57]:
I mean, Laura, I think you just said it, perfectly. You know, 2 people who just don’t work well together oftentimes are better apart. And it’s a very active way of looking at your divorce and at your at your future. And originally, when I sold better apart to HarperCollins, I had called it your elegant divorce. But I really, over time, decided I really wanted to create something that was more active and felt more engaging to the people going through going through the divorce. And, and I just love the idea of radical positivity through something that’s generally not viewed as positive at all. So you and your partner can really become better apart. It is a day by day process.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:40:43]:
And for you, just think about you can be better. Right? Don’t worry about your ex. Right? You can be better apart from your ex.

Lora Cheadle [00:40:53]:
I love that. I love that. And I also love how it’s moving towards something as opposed to running away from something. You’re moving into being better.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:41:01]:
You’re moving into being better, making your life better, and having things work in a way that’s that, you know, that your divorce can actually be an opportunity for something brighter. And I love that. It’s very exciting. It’s you know, I used to, often talk about the positive divorce movement because I think when you’re getting divorced, there’s so much shame and you’re living in the shadows, you don’t wanna talk about it. But when you think about the fact that 50% of all people are divorced, it’s like we’re all walking around in the street with, like such a mask on. And then, what is that what kind of legacy does that give to your kids? Right? Then your kids feel like they’re part of this horrible thing and they feel less than. And so, I feel like, again, to hold your head up high and to know that you, your life will be better, and you can flaunt your better life Yeah. After.

Gabrielle Hartley [00:41:53]:
Right? Yep.

Lora Cheadle [00:41:54]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I love it. Well, thank you for your positivity, for your expertise, and for your willingness to share. Listeners, please check out copies of both of her books. I will put the links in the show notes too, but Better Apart, The Radically Positive Way to Separate and, the secret to get along and why it’s easier than you think, 3 steps to life changing conflict resolution, And then gabriellehartley.com. And as usual, have an amazing week and always remember to flaunt everything that you are because who you are is always more than enough.