After infidelity, you don’t just want to survive—you want to reclaim yourself, maybe your relationship, and thrive. Join Lora Cheadle, infidelity recovery advocate and believer that women do not need to be stuck in the devastation of betrayal forever, alongside renowned relationship therapist Terry Real, as they challenge misconceptions, cut through the noise, and help you take back your power.
In this episode, Terry Real breaks down why traditional therapy often fails betrayed partners, the difference between individual and relational empowerment, and how to advocate for yourself without getting stuck in blame or resentment. Whether you’re staying or leaving, you’ll learn to transform your pain into a catalyst for joy, confidence, and the life you truly deserve.
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Top 3 Takeaways:
- Infidelity is a trauma, not a failure. Your pain is real, and healing starts with acknowledging the depth of your experience.
- Healing is about transformation, not just survival. The goal isn’t returning to what was—it’s creating something better, whether with or without your partner.
- Empowerment is relational, not individual. True healing comes when you reclaim your voice, set boundaries, and cultivate relationships that support your growth.
Tune in weekly for insights, expert interviews, and real-world tools to help you rise, reign, and reclaim your worth.
Ready to heal your body and mind after betrayal? Download your free Betrayal Recovery Toolkit at BetrayalRecoveryGuide.com and book a complimentary 30-minute consultation with Lora today!
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About Terry Real:
The author of four books, including the recent New York Times bestseller Us: Getting Past You and Me to Build a More Loving Relationship, Terry knows how to lead people on a step-by-step journey to greater intimacy and personal fulfillment.
His revolutionary approach to couples therapy, Relational Life Therapy, underpins all his books, courses, and teachings. RLT equips people with the powerful relational skills they need to make love work and cultivate authentic connections—to themselves, each other, and the planet as a whole.
A former senior faculty member of the Family Institute of Cambridge in Massachusetts and a retired Clinical Fellow of the Meadows Institute in Arizona, Terry has worked with thousands of individuals, couples, and fellow therapists. His extraordinary ability to save couples on the brink of divorce garnered Terry the reputation of “the turnaround guy,” and demand from other therapists to learn his RLT method skyrocketed.
To bring the remarkable results of RLT to as many people as possible, Terry established his Relational Life Institute. To date, thousands of mental health practitioners have benefited from a whole new perspective on couples therapy that has transformed their clients, their practice, and their own relationships.
Perhaps you’re looking for guidance on how to restore closeness in your relationship, or maybe you’re currently single but looking to learn the skills to build healthier connections.
Either way, you’re in the right place. Here, you’ll find a wealth of resources—from free resources to online courses, all designed to help you forge healthy, fulfilling relationships that last a lifetime.
About Lora:
Lora Cheadle is a betrayal recovery coach, attorney, and TEDx speaker who helps women heal from betrayal on an energetic, emotional, and ancestral level—while also providing legal guidance to help them navigate the practical complexities of infidelity and relationship transitions. She empowers women to rise from the ashes, reclaim their identity and self-worth, break free from repeating patterns, and step into their power with confidence, clarity, and grace.
After being shattered by her husband’s fifteen years of infidelity, Lora knows firsthand what it takes to transform devastation into an invitation for healing, freedom, and joy. Her unique approach blends deep emotional healing with tangible legal and life strategies, guiding women beyond betrayal into lives of unapologetic confidence and purpose.
As the founder of Life Choreography Coaching & Advocacy, Lora provides comprehensive legal, emotional, intellectual, and spiritual support on demand. She believes that infidelity doesn’t have to be the end of the dream you poured your heart and soul into—it can be the beginning of a life filled with sovereignty, connection, and joy.
Licensed to practice law in California and Colorado, Lora is also a trauma-aware coach, clinical hypnotherapist, somatic attachment therapist, and advanced integrated energy practitioner. She is certified in yoga, mindfulness, group fitness, and personal training, bringing a holistic perspective to healing.
She is the author of FLAUNT! Drop Your Cover and Reveal Your Smart, Sexy, & Spiritual Self (an International Book Awards Finalist and Tattered Cover Bestseller) and It’s Not Burnout, It’s Betrayal: 5 Tools to FUEL UP & Thrive. She also hosts the podcast FLAUNT! Create a Life You Love After Infidelity and Betrayal.
Based in Colorado, Lora is an adventure-seeker who loves travel, a great book, and saying yes to life’s magic.
Betrayal Recovery Tool Kit:
Find Relief, Reclaim Yourself, and Rewrite Your Story
Download your Betrayal Recovery Tool Kit at www.BetrayalRecoveryGuide.com and start reclaiming yourself and your life today!
Let’s connect! Share your thoughts or questions from this episode with Lora at loracheadle.com. New episodes every week.
Subscribe, like, share, and join Lora Cheadle on your journey to reclaim your sparkle and create a life you love.
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Let’s connect! Share your thoughts or questions from this episode with Lora at loracheadle.com. New episodes every week.
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Thank you to BetterHelp for sponsoring this podcast! Take charge of your mental health and get 10% off your first month of therapy at https://BetterHelp.com/FLAUNT
Are you ready to Rise Up, Reclaim Your Story, & Reign as the Queen of your Life? Infidelity may have shaken your world, but it doesn’t define you. You are powerful. You are worthy. And you are capable of creating a future filled with confidence, clarity, and joy. I will walk by your side, giving you the perspective, permission, and wisdom to transform your betrayal into something profoundly empowering. Whether you work with me one-on-one or complete my Affair Recovery Programs from the privacy of your home, you’ll gain the tools to untangle yourself from the past, reclaim your power, and step boldly into your next chapter. Your healing starts now! Learn more at:
www.AffairRecoveryForWomen.com
Visit www.LoraCheadle.com for more resources & inspiration.
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- International Book Award, Finalist Motivational Self-Help 2021
• Tattered Cover Bestseller 2019
Are you tired of living a life dictated by others? What if you could break free and be who you are? If you’ve felt trapped by expectations and long to be free, FLAUNT! is the key to unlocking who you are, expressing yourself authentically, and choreographing your life your way.
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Transcript:
Lora Cheadle [00:00:01]:
You’re listening to Flaunt, find your sparkle and create a life you love after infidelity or betrayal. A podcast for women who’ve been betrayed by their intimate partner and want to turn their devastation into an invitation to reclaim them selves and their worth. Tune in weekly so you can start making sense of it all and learn how to be okay on the inside no matter what goes on on the outside. Download your free betrayal recovery toolkit at betrayalrecoveryguide.com.
Lora Cheadle [00:00:35]:
This podcast is sponsored by BetterHelp. Have you been struggling lately? Relationship issues impact every area of your life. When I found out about my husband’s infidelity, I was so devastated. I could barely function. Sleeping was impossible because I couldn’t shut off my brain. Eating was a challenge because I felt nauseous all the time. And for the first month or so, everything felt pointless. Whether you’re having trouble sleeping, feeling hopeless, or just can’t focus, BetterHelp is here to help you.
Lora Cheadle [00:01:07]:
BetterHelp offers licensed therapists who are trained to listen and help. You can talk to your therapist in a private online environment at your convenience. There’s a broad range of expertise in BetterHelp’s twenty thousand plus therapist network that gives you access to help that might not be available in your area. Just fill out a questionnaire to help assess your specific needs, and then you’ll be matched with a therapist in under twenty four hours. Then you can schedule secure video and phone sessions. Plus, you can exchange unlimited messages, and everything you share is completely confidential. I know that confidentiality was important for me, especially early on when I couldn’t even get my own mind wrapped around what was happening. And it was so comforting to be able to speak with someone candidly about everything I was going through to validate that what I was feeling and experiencing was completely normal.
Lora Cheadle [00:02:03]:
You can request a new therapist at no additional charge anytime. Join the 2,000,000 plus people who have taken charge of their mental health with an experienced BetterHelp therapist. Special offer to flaunt, create a life you love after infidelity and betrayal listeners. You get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/flaunt. That’s betterhelp, h e l p, Com / flaunt, f l a u n t. Thanks again to BetterHelp for sponsoring this podcast.
Lora Cheadle [00:02:50]:
Here’s what I want you to know about infidelity. What I want you to know about infidelity is it really stinks. Like, it is absolutely the worst thing I have ever been through, and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. And the other thing that I know is that there are so many misconceptions about infidelity, and it drives me bonkers. Yes. There are well meaning people out there who want to help, but there’s also a lot of people who have no clue. No clue. Because they’re not in a similar situation than you.
Lora Cheadle [00:03:27]:
They have a very different lifestyle. They have a very different marriage. They have a very different relationship. And I really want to call that out. I wanna call out why you are different, why I was different, and why the information in this podcast is so valuable for you. I also want to say it and just put it out there that I would love it if you would come work with me. Why? Let me tell you. I am an infidelity advocate.
Lora Cheadle [00:04:01]:
I’m not just a coach, a therapist, somebody who who was cheated and has decided to do something on their own. No. No. No. No. No. I am an infidelity advocate. What does that mean? I’m so glad you asked.
Lora Cheadle [00:04:16]:
It means I am advocating for you. I am advocating on behalf of you and your best interest. Sometimes your best interest might not be exactly what you think it is, and together, we will unpack that, and we will figure it out. I will advocate for you. I will help you get what you need, whether it’s from a therapist, a clergy member, a financial planner, or a lawyer. I am going to help you advocate on behalf of yourself so you can get what you need. Communication is essential. It is essential.
Lora Cheadle [00:05:03]:
And when we are activated, when our nervous systems are all out of whack, oh my gosh, it’s so hard to communicate because we’re offline. Our brains are going haywire. And when you work with me, you learn how to identify when you’re out of whack, when your nervous system is activated. And I give you tools and tips and techniques to calm down, to slow down, to create space so you can start communicating. I help you figure out how to heal on an ancestral level, on a solo level, on an intellectual level, on an emotional level, on all the levels. What I do is not about betrayal recovery. What I do is transformation. I help you take this situation that is probably the worst thing that has ever happened in your life, and I hope you use it for good Because that’s what matters, using your situation for good.
Lora Cheadle [00:06:05]:
Using it as a catalyst to create something that you want, to become the woman that you want to be. There are several different ways of working with me. Yes. We can meet one on one. We can meet for one appointment. We can meet for three six hundred and twelve appointments. Or my favorite way to work is in a six month container where we walk side by side, hand in hand. You have access to me via the Voxer app twenty four seven.
Lora Cheadle [00:06:39]:
I want you telling me what’s going on so I can whisper back in your ear and be like, okay. Let’s manage this. Okay. What about this? Okay. Think about this. Go see your therapist. Go read this book. Go check out this podcast.
Lora Cheadle [00:06:55]:
Go read this blog. I am like the concierge who will tell you where to go and what to do so you are not left in the dark, so you’re not struggling, so you’re not making mistakes, so you can figure it out and get where you wanna be. And you know what? Here’s the truth too. So many of us don’t know where we wanna be, and that’s okay too. I will help you figure out where you want to be. Because a huge piece of this is the realization that we lost ourselves along the way. We gave up too much of who we are in order to have a marriage, have a family, build a career, do all of the things. And infidelity, the reason sometimes I’m like, it’s a gift, people.
Lora Cheadle [00:07:46]:
It’s a gift, is it gives you that opportunity to go back, to rebuild, to reclaim everything you let go of, to build the kind of relationship that you want, and to become exactly the woman that you know you deserve to be. So if you wanna get information on my programs, whether it’s my six month rise and reign program, my ninety day starting strong program, or whether you’re like, let’s just do a few sessions. I need you in my life. I don’t care if we mean every day or once a week. Go to affairrecoveryforwomen.com. Affair recovery for women Com. There are three links. The first link is to the starting strong program.
Lora Cheadle [00:08:35]:
The second link is to my individual sessions. And the third link, the one I really want you to think about and focus on, is to my rise and reign six month container where we do this together, and I guide you through step at a time. So affairrecoveryforwomen.com, and I can’t wait to see who you become on the other side. Hello, and welcome to Flaunt, create a life you love after infidelity or betrayal. I’m Laura Cheadle. And once again, we have Terry Reel as a guest on my show. For those of you who might not have caught the first episode, go back and listen to it. And because you’re gonna learn so much from him.
Lora Cheadle [00:09:24]:
Terry is an international recognized family therapist, speaker, and author.
Lora Cheadle [00:09:26]:
He founded the Relational Life Institute, which
Lora Cheadle [00:09:26]:
offers workshops for couples, individuals, Institute, which offers workshops for couples, individuals, and parents, along with professional training for clinicians who want to learn his Relational Life Institute method, which is an amazing method, and we’re gonna talk about that a little bit today. But for now, welcome to the show. I’m really happy to have you.
Terry Real [00:09:53]:
Oh, great. It’s great to be back. I loved our first interview, and I’m I’m happy back tomorrow.
Lora Cheadle [00:09:58]:
Wonderful. Wonderful. Well, today, I would really like to talk about a couple of things. First is the concept of relating. Relationships are about relating, and we attract people who trigger us for our own healing. But then those triggers get so bad and so painful, and things like infidelity happen. So how do we know when we’re evolving, when we’re growing, and when it’s time to be like, I think my lesson is to walk away?
Terry Real [00:10:31]:
Well, that’s a great question. You you know, what what I’d like to do, Laura, assuming that there are people who didn’t get our first interview and probably aren’t gonna go back and listen to it. But those people who are we do are just reeling from infidelity. Let let let me check that question and return to it. And I I’d like to just quickly review some of what we said earlier about the process of coming back from infidelity.
Lora Cheadle [00:11:03]:
That would be helpful. Yes.
Terry Real [00:11:05]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I’d like to help people. So, first of all, on the one hand, most couples do come back from infidelity, although it depends on what you mean by coming back. Most people survive infidelity even without therapy. Two out of three couples survive. But I’m not interested in helping people survive.
Terry Real [00:11:37]:
What I say is if you’re gonna pay the price, then you might as well use the catastrophe of infidelity, as fuel, as a springboard for transformation. And in our work, relational life therapy, we use Infidelity for those who make it, as a way of transforming each of the two partners and the relationship. I’m not I have zero interest in returning the couple to the status quo. You’re gonna grow or you’re gonna die, but you’re not gonna say the same. That that’s how it goes. So let me talk about the so quick quickly review the steps of the process.
Lora Cheadle [00:12:29]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Because listeners here, same thing. They are not interested in going back to what was. This is whether they’re going back as an individual or whether moving forward as a couple, they all want to move on and get better.
Terry Real [00:12:47]:
Yeah. And in RIT, relational life therapy, the method I’ve created and trained thousands of therapists, therapists, we don’t consider successful couples therapy saving every couple. Yeah. We we consider successful couples therapy as ending the misery. Yes. Our our enemy is more of sane. You know, if you’re in a misery and decide you’re out of there, fine. You’re in the misery, and you’re gonna transform long term relationship, fine.
Terry Real [00:13:23]:
If they’re kids, you know, yeah, better if you can work it out for everybody. But if you can’t work it out, we don’t like staying for the sake of the kids. You you get out. So okay. So what does working out look like? So the first phase concentrates on the betrayed partner Yes. Hurt partner. And we consider this a true trauma. In a sense, trauma really means your your basic assumptions are shattered.
Terry Real [00:13:58]:
You lean against the wall, and you go right through it. I lived through an earthquake in San Francisco, and the earth, like, woe like we were on the ocean. I I was, like, so discombobulated. Solid wasn’t solid. Solid acted like you know, there’s things that I need to think about a bit. So when you were in Chicago, you weren’t really in Chicago. You were really that’s trauma. Yeah.
Terry Real [00:14:28]:
My reality has been messed with it. Black is not black. It’s suddenly red. And we treat to her partner as a trauma the survivor. Are you eating? Are you sleeping? Do you need some a short stint of antidepressant medication or sleep medication? Do you, do you need a a short course of there’s a wonderful therapy called EMDR, that will help with intrusive thoughts that you’re can’t get. You do need immediate help to get through the next five minutes. That’s how it is. That’s the first phase.
Terry Real [00:15:14]:
And when that settles down, then we can start to move into the next phase. Now on the involved partner’s side, if there is to be healing, the price of admission is accountability.
Lora Cheadle [00:15:32]:
Yes.
Terry Real [00:15:33]:
I did it, and I’m sorry for the pain I caused you and maybe the kids. Mhmm. Oh, by the way and maybe her partners will have a hard time hearing this. I don’t insist on, I’m sorry I had the infidelity. Right. Because maybe I’m not. You know? Maybe that’s bullshit, frankly. Yeah.
Terry Real [00:16:01]:
That maybe the affair or or the one night stand or whatever it was opened something up in me. And, frankly, I’m not sorry I did it. I’m sorry for what it did to everybody. And, as a therapist, I never condone that kind of life. And let me be clear. Infidelity, is not the same as an open marriage. Or No. Infidelity means two things.
Terry Real [00:16:33]:
There’s a transgression. We have a contract, for example, for monogamy, and I broke it. And then there’s deceit. I I lie about it. I cover my tracks. And you can be unfaithful in an open relationship, by the way.
Lora Cheadle [00:16:52]:
Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. That’s a thing.
Terry Real [00:16:55]:
You know? Because people just love transgression. Sure. Let’s have an open marriage, but just not my sister. Well, guess what? You know? Open not anybody in my hometown. Well, guess what? So it there’s transmission and there’s deceit. And deceit, as you well know, the sexual transgression is like a deep puncture. That word just goes right in the heart. Oh my god.
Terry Real [00:17:25]:
I I I can’t imagine I I think of you and him or her. You you know? I think of you having I it’s just it’s, it’s indescribably painful. Right. Yeah. That’s the infidelity. The deceit can actually do even more harm. Yes. Because the deceit takes the legs out of the normal tools that we would use to come back from a breach in the relationship.
Terry Real [00:18:01]:
Everything I say to you could be a lie because I’m a lying in the spirit of the son of a god. And
Lora Cheadle [00:18:07]:
Yes.
Terry Real [00:18:07]:
So how do you come back from that?
Lora Cheadle [00:18:10]:
Yeah.
Terry Real [00:18:11]:
It’s dicey. So the first thing in our business is accountability. And, unfortunately, more often than not, the involved partner is what we call a ragged disclosure. Mhmm. It’s unfortunate, but try as I jump up and down and tell people to do otherwise. Most unfaithful partners do not come completely clean. It’s, yeah. I did it, three weeks later.
Terry Real [00:18:42]:
Well, yeah, I also did that five years ago. A month later, wow. I didn’t tell you. That’s unfortunately and so it’s just getting killed as the hurt partner. The other thing that is just so sad is, you know, a generation ago, I’ll make it heteronormative. A generation ago, a woman would find lipstick on a guy’s collar. Now you have 30 pages of salacious text. The it’s like you’re tortured with this stuff.
Lora Cheadle [00:19:21]:
Yes.
Terry Real [00:19:22]:
So it’s just it’s a deep, deep hurt, and the involved partner has to sit there and tolerate the pain that they’ve caused, and it’s hard to do. So you may if you’re not getting where you need to go, the two of you, for god’s sake, get help, and get help that really helps. I’m sure you have a list.
Lora Cheadle [00:19:49]:
Yes.
Terry Real [00:19:50]:
There’s thousands of relational life therapists I’ve trained around the world. Go to my website. Don’t be shy. You know, you you when you need help. When you can’t do it yourself, that’s when you need help. So
Lora Cheadle [00:20:02]:
Yeah. And I’m glad that you said that because I know when I went through it, and so many of the people that I work with too will say, I never thought this would happen to me, and I’m way too embarrassed to get help. And it’s like once you start asking for help, you realize you’re normal. There are people that can help, and it helps. It really help getting help helps, and then you feel better and things shift. And I love how you said it’s about ending the misery. So do you wanna end the misery? Get help.
Terry Real [00:20:33]:
Yeah. Get help. Yeah. They’re online groups, but I want you to get help with someone who supports your relationship. Yes. Not just you as an individual.
Lora Cheadle [00:20:46]:
Yes.
Terry Real [00:20:46]:
Unfortunately, there are a ton of online groups, therapy, women’s group. You know? I wouldn’t let that son of a gun get you know? And it will actually be my friend Esther Perella writes talks about the new shame, of taking the son of a gun back. Yeah. What what kind of world are we in? It’s heroic to take the son of a gun back. Are you kidding me?
Lora Cheadle [00:21:12]:
Yeah.
Terry Real [00:21:12]:
But this culture is so individualistic and anti relational. It’s like, well, how can you put up what self respecting per no. You’re fighting for your family, man. You’re fighting for your kids. If you can get through it and use it, and the person you’re with is truly remorseful and learns and comes out the other side as a better partner, then any girlfriend, mother, and therapist you have who’s saying dump the son of a gun, be self respecting, and rip your family apart, the hell with them. That’s not help I want you to have. So okay. Those are some general thoughts.
Terry Real [00:21:56]:
And then the third phase is, understanding. How could this have happened? And there you know, here and there, there are people where there’s honestly not much to understand that two good people, good marriage, good sex life. I don’t know. I I was on a business trip in Amsterdam, and I had a one here and there, you get that. But 99 out of a hundred times, there’s something going on. Mhmm. And it’s either the relationship is off or stale or constricted in some way. Somebody needs to open up the windows.
Terry Real [00:22:40]:
I don’t condone how they do it, but but those windows needed to be broken open. Or there’s nothing wrong with the relationship primarily, and the involved partner is narcissistic. They’re just selfish. Yeah. You know, I I say, you don’t ask somebody why they cheat. You ask them why they’re monogamous. Why you cheat? You you look great. It’s flattering.
Terry Real [00:23:07]:
It’s pleasurable. Why not? Yeah. Well, why not? There’s I don’t wanna hurt my wife. I don’t wanna hurt my kids. I don’t wanna ruin my sense of integrity. There’s a lot of reasons why not.
Lora Cheadle [00:23:18]:
Yeah.
Terry Real [00:23:19]:
My definition, if someone’s cheated, they’ve overridden that no. And by and large, either the relationship has gotten so threadbare in a way that the impulse to protect it is weak. And you see this a lot with women, Gucci. It’s like, you know, I I had one and a half feet out the door, and if it blows up, it blows up. The hell with it. Or, you override the no because you’re valuing of the connection of the family doesn’t outweigh your selfishness. That’s more narcissism. And we live in a narcissistic age.
Terry Real [00:24:04]:
So I try and differentiate which of the two it is predominantly. It’s usually both, but what Mhmm. And and dear to that. And what you want and and it’s hard for the her partner to hear this, but as a therapist, what I want, I want the evolved partner to identify and own what parts of them they were looking for in the infidelity. And rather than suppress those parts and be a good boy or a good girl, take those wilder parts and bring them back in your goddamn marriage. I I don’t want you to shrink. I I want you to recommit to aliveness and honesty, but with the person you’re with. How’s all that?
Lora Cheadle [00:24:58]:
Oh, yeah. And I love that so much because because of everything. Because it explains my personal situation, but also my philosophy around all of my IP with flaunt. We don’t compress. We don’t constrict. We flaunt. We put it out there. And in that honesty, in that vulnerability, that’s where the magic happens, and that’s where we can come together and learn and relate and spark off of each other and create joy because life and relationships is about joy.
Lora Cheadle [00:25:28]:
And being a lone wolf is not joyful, being in connection is. So phenomenal. Thank you. Yes.
Terry Real [00:25:36]:
So let me go back to your first you have two questions.
Lora Cheadle [00:25:39]:
Yes.
Terry Real [00:25:39]:
What what what what is the relating in relationship? Right? Like, you’re you’re a relationship expert. What the hell does that even mean? And then two, how do I know when to stay and when to go?
Lora Cheadle [00:25:52]:
Yeah. Because at some point, when I’m the only one doing the relating and there is no accountability or there was just little tiny bits of it, at some point, I need to take my gifts and move forward.
Terry Real [00:26:06]:
Yes. Absolutely. But only after you’ve tried everything in the book.
Lora Cheadle [00:26:11]:
Absolutely. Yes.
Terry Real [00:26:13]:
And trying everything in the book includes getting an ally and a therapist. And let me be clear about what I just said.
Lora Cheadle [00:26:25]:
I want to unpack that because, yes, so many listeners are probably thinking, wait a minute. A therapist is a neutral third party. Some are, but in my professional opinion, that’s not as powerful as having an ally. So, yes, let’s unpack that and say more.
Terry Real [00:26:40]:
Well, this is part of my training. Anybody, any coach or therapist out there, come and train with us. Listen. Your cardinal rule in couples therapy is thou shalt not take sides. Everything’s fifty fifty. But guess what? Bullshit. And infidelity is a great example. You know, this is the feminist critique of family therapy.
Terry Real [00:27:03]:
Not everything is fifty fifty. You don’t ask, some an abused wife, honey, what was your contribution to the I mean, that’s grotesque. Mhmm. And the same thing with infidelity. Look. Okay. We had a shitty relationship. I own my part in that.
Terry Real [00:27:24]:
You can deal with our shitty relationship without going off and having sex with somebody. That’s not I’m not taking responsibility. That’s you. Because those are not ours, honey.
Lora Cheadle [00:27:35]:
Yeah.
Terry Real [00:27:36]:
So no. I look. One of the distinctive features of relational life therapy is we are not neutral. We take sides. And when there is an obvious power imbalance, when there’s an obvious imbalance in responsibility, We empower the one in the one down position to stand up, and we bring the one in the one up position down. And that’s our brand. That’s what we do that other therapies don’t do.
Lora Cheadle [00:28:10]:
Yeah. And that listeners, you know me. I’m a lawyer. I’m about justice. I’m about creating justice within your relationships, within the world, and most importantly within yourself, and this is how you do it. And sometimes you need help. Can you learn self advocacy skills? Absolutely. But sometimes it does take that third person to be like, and listen, this is how we’re bringing you up and this is how we’re bringing them down.
Lora Cheadle [00:28:35]:
Not out of blame, not out of shame, but out of rebalancing the power dynamics. So amen to all of that.
Terry Real [00:28:43]:
Thank you. Amen. By by the way, I should mention, it so happens that today, there’s an article in the New York Times. It’s in digital today. It will be in print on, Sunday, February 9. I did an eight session course of therapy. With a guy who was one up. He wasn’t unfaithful, but he had an anger problem.
Terry Real [00:29:14]:
And, I did the work that I’m talking about with you, and it turned out he was a journalist, and so he solved his experience in the New York Times. Love for people that, read it. I love the title. The title is, wait a minute. Let me the title is what, can an expert on masculinity teach me about my marriage? Everything. That’s the title.
Lora Cheadle [00:29:40]:
Oh, that’s a great title. I will definitely put the link in the show notes. I haven’t checked it out yet either. So I will do that after this, and then I’ll put the link in the show notes.
Terry Real [00:29:48]:
Yeah. It’s great. Anyway so, yeah, get a therapist who will back you up and not do the uh-huh, uh-huh, and tell me more. You need more power than that. Mhmm. Okay. So should I stay or should I go? Assuming you’ve done everything you can and you don’t get through. Assuming you went to one therapist who was neutral and passive and, uh-huh, tell me your and got rid of them and got a therapist who actually knows what they’re doing, and it still didn’t work.
Terry Real [00:30:24]:
Mhmm. Here’s your question. I call this relational reckoning. There’s an article about it. You can get it get it on my website. Should I stay or should I go? One tool, relational reckoning, and that tool consists of a question. And here’s the question. Ready? Am I getting enough in this relationship to make grieving what I’m not getting okay with me? Am I getting enough to make the pain of what I’m not getting okay? Assuming they won’t change.
Terry Real [00:31:11]:
I’ve tried. Therapist have tried. Can I live with this? Am I okay with this?
Terry Real [00:31:17]:
Yeah.
Terry Real [00:31:17]:
You know, I’m Bill, and I’m with Jill. And Jill, like so many women, unfortunately, has a, sex, abuse, history. I was with a lot of lovers in the past who would swing from chandeliers and, you know, go crazy. Joe, on the other hand, needs to be in control. It needs to be slung. It needs to be gentle. Wild, orgies even if it’s just the two of us, not in the cards in this relationship. Do I miss that? I do.
Terry Real [00:31:55]:
What do I do with that? Nothing. I feel it. I bear it. We’re all together, and I’m watching some other wife, and she’s in some guy’s lap. And I know she’s a wild character. Oh, man. I don’t have that in this marriage. Right.
Terry Real [00:32:14]:
Okay. Now what? So but here’s what I do have with Jill. I have a deeper connection to anybody I’ve ever felt in my life. I have intellectual stimulation. She is a great mother to my child. This woman has my back in a way that no one ever has. I can relax into her in a way I feel more loved and loving. Oh my god.
Terry Real [00:32:40]:
And we have a great sex life. It’s fine. Do we swing from chandelier? No. Is it good enough? It’s good enough. And in our culture, we don’t teach people how to digest grief and disappointment. We’re imperfect. So is this person gonna change? Well, not after two therapists and a year of jumping up and down. No.
Terry Real [00:33:05]:
They’re not. Assuming they’re gonna be how they are, am I getting enough? And if the answer is no, get out. Mhmm. If you need help, get help to get out. If the answer is yes, don’t walk around nursing your resentments.
Lora Cheadle [00:33:23]:
Yes.
Terry Real [00:33:25]:
Move into that joy that you radiate for. But move into that joy, embrace what you’re getting, and celebrate it. Let go of your grudge, and, and put your arms around the the pleasure. Mhmm. So that’s how you know. If the answer is no, I’m not getting enough, you’re done. If the answer is yes, I am getting enough, let go of your resentment and celebrate what you’re getting.
Lora Cheadle [00:33:53]:
Yeah. Yeah. And this spirals around to what we were talking about at the very beginning, the two prongs of betrayal. One is the physical transgression. The other is the deception. This is a deception of self. If you are saying nursing your wounds and constantly focusing on that, the person you’re deceiving is yourself. Yeah.
Lora Cheadle [00:34:15]:
Because you’re not allowing yourself to move into that joy, to move into the connection and the other aspects of that relationship that brings so much to you.
Terry Real [00:34:26]:
You have to let look. You can get triggered twenty years later. That’s normal. It’s like, my metaphor for coming back is grief. You You know, God forbid you you lose somebody, a a dear friend or a family member you adore. The the beginning of it is how am I gonna get through the next five minutes? Just like infidelity. How how am I gonna sleep tonight? Yeah. Three months later, it’s a little calmed down.
Terry Real [00:34:55]:
Three years later, it should be in the background if everybody’s done their work. But twenty years later, if you’re walking down the street and a particular song will come up or you’ll look at somebody who looks like they’re a partner or or or you and when you get triggered, tell your partner, don’t act it out. Express it. Don’t don’t don’t be it. Yeah. I’m being triggered. Here’s what’s going on for me. The Enviro partner, whether it’s now, three months, twenty years from now, honey, I’m sorry.
Terry Real [00:35:36]:
Tell me about it. What are you feeling right now? What do you need from me? You’re you’re a comp compassionate teammate, And you’re on it. I did this to you. My behavior did this to you. I’m really sorry. Is there anything I can do right now? And, you know, if you’re a sane person, that’s that’s really all you need. Yeah. Oh, let me hear how you’re doing.
Terry Real [00:36:06]:
Is there anything I can do right now? I’m really sorry I did this to you. I did. Are we okay? Yes. Passed. So you’re gonna trigger forever, but there’s a difference between being triggered and just nursing the grudge.
Lora Cheadle [00:36:25]:
Yes. Yes.
Terry Real [00:36:29]:
If you have an accountable partner, they learn. They’re truly remorseful, and your partners move beyond their selfishness or their, people pleasing or whatever they did that got them in the corner, and you move, and the marriage has moved, let it go. Mhmm. Mhmm. They’re they’re to take the s.
Lora Cheadle [00:36:56]:
Yeah. Now what I hear beneath the surface in some of this, when you talk about nursing the grudge, so often, I feel like that is an unconscious attempt to bring the other person down. And I think that’s just sometimes an important thing to be aware of. Why am I not feeling empowered enough to state that I’m feeling triggered, to share, to talk about it. Why am I just nursing this grudge, hoping somebody’s gonna see how hurt I am and feeling sorry for myself and bringing them back down? There’s just so much self reflection in that when the ultimate goal should be. I don’t really love the word should, but it should be creating a healthy, happy relationship. I want to be connected to you. I want to be supported by you.
Lora Cheadle [00:37:54]:
I want you to support me. So why would I not be honest in expressing my needs?
Terry Real [00:38:00]:
That’s exactly right. And you know what’s so odd is the same people, and particularly, hetero women, I’m gonna say. I mean, a lot big generalization. Okay. We get that. But, nevertheless, the same person who is afraid to rock the boat and tell the truth about what’s going on with them, afraid to make a request. Honey, I’m feeling triggered. Could you just put your arms around me and hold me? Honey, I’m feeling scared.
Terry Real [00:38:31]:
Could you reassure me for the five thousandth time that you’re not gonna run off and leave me? I know it’s irrational, but would you, it would help? The same person who won’t do that because it’s too vulnerable has no problem complaining, being angry, yelling and screaming. Isn’t that odd? If you’re if you’re not courageous enough to just ask your partner for what you want, why are you so courageous that you’re going to yell and scream to carry on? It’s like, wait. Wait. That’s the word change for us. Wake up. But we do it all the time because there’s no there’s no vulnerability in angry complaint. In fact, righteous indignation is a drug. Yes.
Terry Real [00:39:18]:
Contempt is a drug. And I may if you read my last book, us Yes. I make a big distinction in my work between individual empowerment and relational empowerment.
Lora Cheadle [00:39:35]:
Yes.
Terry Real [00:39:35]:
And a lot of hurt partners, were disempowered in their relationship. A lot of herd partners are people pleasers, are more enabling codependent types, may not limit. Oh, excuse me. Sorry about that.
Lora Cheadle [00:40:02]:
That’s okay.
Terry Real [00:40:04]:
You know, a lot of, of our partners, have a, I’m gonna take men. Have a good boy, bad boy split. So they’re constricted and good in their intimate relationship, and they’re selfish and bad, but have joy and pleasure and aliveness out in the back alley. Mhmm. Then they integrate that. These guys in particular, these people pleasing guys who show up in their marriages, sort of as I’m gonna do I’m gonna be the good boy and do what’s necessary, but I’m dead inside. When I say to their par when their partner say to me, how could they lie? I say, they’ve been lying for twenty years. Yeah.
Terry Real [00:41:06]:
Every time they say yes and they mean no, they’re lying. They’ve been lying the whole relationship is trying to teach these people to be more authentic. On the other hand, their herd partner is quite often put up with irresponsible or distant or selfish behavior that they had no business putting up with for decades. And now look at what it gets you. Mhmm. I want people to be fierce. I want people to be honest. You know, you’re talking to the guy who wrote fierce intimacy.
Terry Real [00:41:37]:
Take each other on. Tell each other the truth, but you have to learn the skills of how to do that.
Lora Cheadle [00:41:43]:
Yes. And and I’m so glad you went there because it does take skills. Because otherwise, I lean into, in your words, the unbridled self expression. And then I’m ranting and raving, and my partner is not capable because he does not have the skills then to be like, oh, I see that you’ve just slipped into unbridled self expression. And here, let me pull you back out of that.
Terry Real [00:42:10]:
You find that guy and I’ll date him. I mean, listen. You know, we’re not insurance therapist. We’re not mom and dad, and we don’t bad behavior elicits withdrawal or bad behavior. Yeah. It is the dream that you get to act like a brat, and your planner’s gonna reach you and go, you know, honey, I could really sense that you’re hurting. Yeah. Good luck with that.
Lora Cheadle [00:42:32]:
Doesn’t happen. No. No. So the skills. So how how do we start learning some of these skills? Because I know for many of the people that I work with, it feels so overwhelming. When all of a sudden the blinders are off and they realize things about themselves and they realize things about their partner. And they just sit there and look at each other, and they’re like, oh, too much. Too much.
Terry Real [00:42:56]:
Yeah. No. You know, it may be. And if it is, it is. But you you’ve you’ve had me on. You know my my work. One of my 8,000,000 sayings is we all marry our unfinished business. Yeah.
Terry Real [00:43:12]:
Falling in love means this god or goddess is gonna complete me, or or at least I’m gonna be able to avoid my childhood wounds. A real relationship means, oh my god. This person is sticking it right in my eyeball. How did that happen? Mhmm. Well, I’m gonna take them. That’s how it happened. I call it the mysticism of marriage.
Lora Cheadle [00:43:32]:
Yeah.
Terry Real [00:43:32]:
Once you’re through the honeymoon phase, who they really are, is exactly the person who’s gonna drive you back into your old unhealed world. But when we’re back in the old drama, oh my god, my husband, my wife, my spouse just betrayed me in exactly the way when I fell in love with them, I knew they wouldn’t. In exactly the way I was betrayed as a kid. Now what? Well, what 99 of a hundred is we try and get that son of a gun. You know? Shit. Give it to us. Yeah. Give me what you promised.
Terry Real [00:44:13]:
And that’s the merry road to hell.
Lora Cheadle [00:44:16]:
Yeah.
Terry Real [00:44:17]:
If you turn and deal with the wounded parts of you and, again, therapy is helpful. And then you turn as an adult to that person and say, we’re in the whole room. Let me do something with you that I couldn’t do as a kid. Mhmm. Most of us have partners who are enough like what we grew up with that we’re back in the soup, but who also have enough resources that if we do something different, they may do something different. And that is what you know? Not getting them to never throw us into it, but when we’re in it, we recalibrate. We literally go to a different part of the brain, the prefrontal cortex. We turn to our partner like an adult, and we use a skill and son of a gun if they don’t respond.
Terry Real [00:45:13]:
But, yes, you have to learn that. Here’s my plug, if I may. Please, please, please, listeners, come to my website, terrywheel.com. We have offerings from the general public.
Lora Cheadle [00:45:26]:
Yes.
Terry Real [00:45:27]:
We have a beautiful course on healthy self esteem, which is completely misunderstood in our culture, a great course on boundaries. And if you’re coming back from infidelity, you absolutely need an emergency kit on boundaries, both of you. And we have a course on, the art of relational living, basic relational skills. So learn and learn together. Become what I call partners in recovery, partners in health. Yeah. But don’t expect to know how to do this stuff. You you have to learn just like I did.
Lora Cheadle [00:46:03]:
Yeah. Just like we all did and that we all continue to do too because that’s something else that I’m really passionate about. It’s not that, oh, my husband cheated. He did. We repaired it. We did. Bam. It’s over.
Lora Cheadle [00:46:16]:
We still get triggered. I still my adoptive child will still show up. His will still show up. We will still have bad times. The difference is there’s an awareness. Oh, this is a bad time, and this is what happened, and this is where we went wrong, and this is how we’re going to correct, and this is how I can be honest and express, and this is how you can help me, and then we can move forward without rushing it under the rug.
Terry Real [00:46:44]:
That’s the container. I call it relational mindfulness, second consciousness. You know, one of my 8,000,000,000 sayings is it isn’t what you do, it’s what you do after you do what you do.
Lora Cheadle [00:46:58]:
I love that.
Terry Real [00:46:59]:
And I also say in a marriage, everybody gets to go crazy, but you have to take turns. And sometimes even that, you have to come back. You have to know there has to be something more than just the craziness. Okay. I was crazy. I admit it. I was mean to you. I’m sorry.
Terry Real [00:47:17]:
What do you need? Let’s come back from this. Mhmm. The of repair, is a central subject in our teaching. How to repair when the wheels come off.
Lora Cheadle [00:47:28]:
Yeah. Yeah. And that’s something also, listeners, if you grab his, book, us from you and me to we, there’s a lot of great information in there also about repair and just the concept of repair. And I know when I first had my husband listen to that book, it was the first time he had ever heard the phrase repair. And he was like, wait. What? You can repair a relationship? And it’s like, yes. Yes. Yeah.
Lora Cheadle [00:47:58]:
Disconnection and repair. Yes. That’s what it means to be in a relationship.
Terry Real [00:48:02]:
That is a relationship. I got that from Ed Tronic, an infant observational researcher who looked at mothers and infants. Yes. All relationships are an end of the stance of harmony, disharmony, and repair. It’s like walking. Balance and balance. Our culture doesn’t teach us how to repair. It doesn’t even acknowledge the rhythm.
Terry Real [00:48:22]:
Well, a good relationship is all harmony. What’s your problem? Yeah. Right. Well, I don’t know who you’ve been talking to. I like to say a perfectly happy marriage is a marriage you don’t know very well.
Lora Cheadle [00:48:35]:
Oh, so true. So true. And, you know, you brought this up earlier about, like, grief and our cultural society. We don’t talk about how to metabolize grief. And similarly, we don’t talk about what a real relationship is like. It we think it’s the Hallmark movie scenarios. And we don’t talk about what it’s really like to recover from infidelity and what it’s like to be in relationship. I really don’t think a lot of people even understand what it means to relate and to be relational, whether it’s in an intimate relationship or a very powerful friendship.
Lora Cheadle [00:49:09]:
And I was wondering if you could just say a few words about how you see a relationship. We did harmony, disharmony, repair, but what else? What does it mean? What are those green flags?
Terry Real [00:49:21]:
What does it mean to be in a really good position?
Terry Real [00:49:24]:
Yeah. That’s great. So, yeah, so I started talking earlier about, individual empowerment. Yes. First of all, one of the things that I focus on is we’re trying to be relational and intimate and loving in a culture which is antirelational, which doesn’t understand intimacy. Intimacy is a new demand, historically. My parent I’m older than you, obviously. My my, parents and grandparents, if anyone is missing, stability, companionship, fine.
Terry Real [00:50:10]:
Yeah. But we wanna be lifelong lovers these days, and we don’t have the skills to pull it off. Our culture doesn’t teach us. Patriarchy, which we all live under, and individualism, which we all live under, they don’t breed intimacy, they breed stability.
Lora Cheadle [00:50:28]:
Yes.
Terry Real [00:50:29]:
So, one of the things I say is that leading men, women, non binary folks into true intimacy is synonymous with leading them beyond patriarchy. Look. I don’t care. You’re you’re obviously younger than me, but I guarantee you, when you grew up, there was pressure at some point to learn to be a good girl.
Lora Cheadle [00:50:49]:
Oh, a %.
Terry Real [00:50:51]:
Accommodate. Don’t be too forceful. Don’t be selfish. That’s the traditional role. Well, guess what? That gets you cheated on. Mhmm. Mhmm. And men are taught that, our egos are founded on our performance.
Lora Cheadle [00:51:10]:
Yes.
Terry Real [00:51:12]:
Please take the self esteem course. Healthy self esteem comes from the inside out. You don’t earn it. You don’t add to it. You don’t subtract from it. My basic worth is the same as yours and everybody else’s, and our culture doesn’t run like that. Mm-mm. Men, by and large there’s three forms of unhealthy self is outside in.
Terry Real [00:51:36]:
One is, other based esteem, which is big for women.
Lora Cheadle [00:51:41]:
Yes.
Terry Real [00:51:42]:
I have worth because you think I do. And I if I’m gonna feel good about myself, you better feel good about me. And I’m gonna twist myself in the nuts to make sure that you feel good about me.
Lora Cheadle [00:51:54]:
Mhmm.
Terry Real [00:51:54]:
That’s the other base. The same was pushed to extremes becomes love addiction. If you don’t feel good about me, I go through a self esteem crash. But one of these I say is pathology is rarely an aberration from the norm. It’s an exaggeration of the norm. Right? Like, mania is being too happy. Depressed is being too sad.
Lora Cheadle [00:52:18]:
I like that.
Terry Real [00:52:19]:
Being a good girl, that’s patriarchy, honey.
Lora Cheadle [00:52:23]:
Yes.
Terry Real [00:52:24]:
That’s all women are raised to be.
Lora Cheadle [00:52:27]:
Yes.
Terry Real [00:52:28]:
And you’re talking to the guy who wrote the book on fierce intimacy. I don’t want good girls. I I want truthful, loving women. Mhmm. Men don’t have healthy self esteem, and what we’ve leaned toward is what we call performance based esteem. I have work because of what I can do. Yes. I can give my wife an orgasm.
Terry Real [00:52:50]:
I can close the deal. I can catch the ball. Well, that’s great if it works, but what happens on the day you don’t catch the ball?
Lora Cheadle [00:52:58]:
Right.
Terry Real [00:52:59]:
I’m a piece of shit. So because men I teach us all the first step for a man in learning how to be accountable in a relationship is self esteem work. Mhmm. If you confront me with my imperfection, and my very self esteem is based on I’m doing a good job. Mhmm. If I let in your confrontation, I go into a shame state. I’m a worthless piece of crap. I don’t wanna feel that.
Terry Real [00:53:29]:
So what do I do? I ward off your criticism. Mhmm. I bob and weave. Well, yeah. You know, I wasn’t actually unfaithful. I don’t think blowjobs are really unfaithful. Thank you, Bill Clinton. You know, I I it’s bullshit.
Terry Real [00:53:48]:
In order for me to be accountable to you, I have to embrace my own imperfection. Mhmm. It’s a and we men are taught that to admit imperfection is to be a big loser. I mean
Lora Cheadle [00:54:03]:
Yes.
Terry Real [00:54:04]:
So but what a lot of women move into is from with a lot of therapy support, they move from disempowerment to individual empowerment.
Lora Cheadle [00:54:17]:
Yes. So true. And that is not healthy.
Terry Real [00:54:21]:
No. I summarize individual empowerment as I was weak, now I’m strong. Go screw yourself. Mhmm. And particularly her partners. Hey. I overaccommodated in this relationship. My therapist says I need a voice.
Terry Real [00:54:35]:
I wanna tell you what I awful question you are. No.
Lora Cheadle [00:54:41]:
Right. That’s. Right.
Terry Real [00:54:43]:
Remotional empowerment, which you radiate, is the wisdom of I was weak, now I’m strong. This is what I want from you. Mhmm. I didn’t tell the truth to you. I love you. What do you need? I want you to come through for me. What can I give you to help empower you to do that? Who sounds like that? We’re a team. What can I give you to help you be more responsible or more open or less critical or less these are the things I want from you? Let’s work together.
Terry Real [00:55:16]:
Yeah. That’s us.
Lora Cheadle [00:55:18]:
Yes.
Terry Real [00:55:20]:
That’s us, not you versus me. And that that has to be taught in this culture.
Lora Cheadle [00:55:26]:
Yeah. And I think that was such a beautiful way to bring this back around full circle too to my very first question, which was, when do I know that I’m still learning, that I’m still doing this dance, and that we’re growing, and that maybe it’s time to walk away? And I feel like what I’m hearing you say is when I am relationally empowered, when I am able to identify my own needs and I’m able to communicate and offer and give, and if that is the place where I’m not being met and then I have more grief and more pain than what I’m getting, that’s when I know I have done everything. I have become my strongest version of who I am. And then that would be the time to bless, to release, and to move on, not with anger, but with such joy and pride that, you know what? I learned all of this stuff, and now I know when it’s time for me to leave.
Terry Real [00:56:28]:
Yes. And the only step I would put before that is getting help because you may not be able to get through to your partner, but someone who’s trained might be able to.
Lora Cheadle [00:56:39]:
Yes. Get help. Always get help.
Terry Real [00:56:43]:
Yeah. So bring that full voice into your relationship. If that doesn’t work, get an ally, not a neutral, oh, tell me more about how you feel, but a active person who knows what they’re doing to take your side. Hey. Listen, Bill. She’s right. You’re wrong. You’re gonna lose her.
Terry Real [00:57:03]:
Listen up. And if the therapist you’re seeing is not doing that, they are throwing you under the bus, go get an RLT therapist.
Lora Cheadle [00:57:13]:
Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you for calling that out. Because if it’s not helping, go to somebody who can help.
Terry Real [00:57:22]:
Yeah. I I learned this from my wife, Belinda. She’s so gutsy. She was talking to, somebody, and she needed to make a a return on a failed, you know, thing she bought or whatever, and the person was giving her the runaround. She said a sentence that has been incorporated in our lives. Here’s a sentence. Oh. Oh.
Terry Real [00:57:46]:
Yes. I think I’m talking to the wrong person. Could I speak to your supervisor? Yeah. And it’s like, oh, dear therapist.
Lora Cheadle [00:57:55]:
Yeah.
Terry Real [00:57:55]:
Tell me more about how you’re feeling. Tell me more about how you’re feel tell me more. Yeah. I think we’re talking to the wrong person. Let me try a different person.
Lora Cheadle [00:58:04]:
Yeah.
Terry Real [00:58:05]:
Only then do you do the relational reckoning and get out. But first, find somebody who can actually help you.
Lora Cheadle [00:58:11]:
Yeah. I love that. Well, thank you so much for your wisdom, for your time. I will definitely link that New York Times article in the show notes as well as information on the self esteem course, the healthy boundaries course, all of that stuff so people can take care of themselves, connect with a relational life therapist, do whatever it is that they need. So thank you for your time.
Terry Real [00:58:37]:
And bless you for this work you’re doing. There’s so many hurt people who have no idea how to come back or even more, not just come back to the same old, same old, but, you know, if you’re gonna, what I say is if you’re gonna do the time, at least use the crime. If you’re gonna suffer, and, man, there’s few things on Earth that bring more suffering than this, then get help and use the suffering to grow, both individually and, if possible, as a family. So you’re doing great work. I’m I’m delighted to be with you.
Lora Cheadle [00:59:15]:
Great. Thank you so much. And listeners, have an amazing week. And as usual, always remember to flaunt exactly who you are because who you are is always more than enough.
Lora Cheadle [00:59:29]:
Tune in next time to flaunt, find your sparkle and create a life you love after infidelity or betrayal with Laura Cheadle every Wednesday at 7AM and 7PM Eastern Standard Time on syndicated DreamVision Seven Radio Network. Uncover the truth of what’s possible for you on the other side of betrayal and develop the skills and strategies necessary to embrace the future and flourish today. Download your free Betrayal Recovery Toolkit at betrayalrecoveryguide.com.
Calm the chaos inside & out
